The Fourth Phase of Water Video and Transcript

Transcript

The Fourth Phase of Water:

What You Don’t Know About Water, and Really Should

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By Dr. Mercola

Water is clearly one of the most important factors for your health—especially when you consider that your body actually consists of over 99 percent water molecules! I sincerely believe water is a really underappreciated part of the equation of optimal health.

I’ve previously interviewed Dr. Gerald Pollack, who is one of the leading premier research scientists in the world when it comes to understanding the physics of water, and what it means to your health.

Besides being a professor of bioengineering at the University of Washington, he’s also the founder and editor-in-chief of a scientific journal called Water, and has published many peer-reviewed scientific papers on this topic. He’s even received prestigious awards from the National Institutes of Health.

His book, The Fourth Phase of Water: Beyond Solid, Liquid, and Vapor, is a phenomenal read that is easy to understand even for the non-professional.

It clearly explains the theory of the fourth phase of water, which is nothing short of ground-breaking. The fourth phase of water is, in a nutshell, living water. It’s referred to as EZ water—EZ standing for “exclusion zone”—which has a negative charge. This water can hold energy, much like a battery, and can deliver energy too.

For years, Dr. Pollack had researched muscles and how they contract, and it struck him as odd that the most common ideas about muscle contraction do not involve water, despite the fact that muscle tissue consists of 99 percent water molecules.

How could it be that 99 percent of the molecules were ignored? How could it be that muscle contracts without involving the water in some way? These questions help catalyze his passionate investigation into water.
So You Think You Understand Water?

Gilbert Ling, who was a pioneer in this field, discovered that water in human cells is not ordinary water (H2O), but something far more structured and organized.

“I began to think about water in the context of biology: if water inside the cell was ordered and structured and not bulk water or ordinary water as most biochemists and cell biologists think, then it is really important,” Dr. Pollack says.

Dr. Pollack’s book also touches on some of the most basic features of water, many of which are really not understood. For example, how does evaporation take place? Why does a tea kettle whistle? Also, despite the fact that conventional science tells us freezing is supposed to occur at zero degrees Celsius, experiments show that it can freeze in many different temperatures down to minus 50 degrees Celsius.

There’s actually no one single freezing point for water! Other experiments show that the boiling point of 100 degrees Celsius (or 212 degrees Fahrenheit) does not always hold true either.

 “There’s a famous website1 put together by a British scientist, Martin Chaplin. Martin lists numerous anomalies associated with water,” Dr. Pollack says. “In other words, things that shouldn’t be according to what we know about water…

The more anomalies we have, the more we begin to think that maybe there’s something fundamental about water that we really don’t know. That’s the core of what I’m trying to do. In our laboratory at the University of Washington, we’ve done many experiments over the last decade. These experiments have clearly shown the existence of this additional phase of water.”

The reason this fourth phase of water is called the exclusion zone or EZ is because the first thing Dr. Pollack’s team discovered is that it profoundly excludes things. Even small molecules are excluded from EZ water. Surprisingly, EZ water appears in great abundance, including inside most of your cells. Even your extracellular tissues are filled with this kind of water.
The Water in Your Cells Give Them Their Negative Charge

Other inherent differences between regular water and EZ water include its structure. Typical tap water is H2O but this fourth phase is not H2O; it’s actually H3O2. It’s also more viscous, more ordered, and more alkaline than regular water, and its optical properties are different. The refractive index of EZ water is about 10 percent higher than ordinary water. Its density is also about 10 percent higher, and it has a negative charge (negative electrical potential). This may provide the answer as to why human cells are negatively charged. Dr. Pollack explains:

“Everybody knows that the cell is negatively charged. If you insert an electrode into any of your cells, you’ll measure a negative electrical potential. The textbook says that the reason for this negative electrical potential has something to do with the membrane and the ion channels in the membrane.

Oddly, if you look at a gel that has no membrane, you record much the same potential – 100 millivolts or 150 millivolts negative. The interior of the cell is much like a gel. It’s kind of surprising that something without a membrane yields the same electrical potential as the cell with a membrane.

That raises the question: where does this negativity come from? Well, I think the negativity comes from the water, because the EZ water inside the cell has a negative charge. The same is true of the gel—the EZ water in the gel confers negativity. I think the cells are negatively charged because the water inside the cell is mainly EZ water and not neutral H2O.”

What Creates or Builds EZ Water?

One of the greatest surprises is that the key ingredient to create EZ water is light, i.e. electromagnetic energy, whether in the form of visible light, ultraviolet (UV) wavelengths and infrared wavelengths, which we’re surrounded by all the time. Infrared is the most powerful, particularly at wavelengths of approximately three micrometers, which is all around you. The EZ water can build on any hydrophilic or water-loving surface when infrared energy is available.

It builds by adding layer upon layer of EZ water, and can build millions of molecular layers. This is how it occurs in nature. For example, ice doesn’t form directly from ordinary H2O. It goes from regular water to EZ water to ice. And when you melt it, it goes from ice to EZ water to regular water. So EZ water is an intermediate state.

“Glacial melt is a perfect way to get EZ water. And a lot of people have known that this water is really good for your health,” Dr. Pollack says.

Testing water samples using a UV-visible spectrometer, which measures light absorption at different wavelengths, Dr. Pollack has discovered that in the UV region of 270 nanometers, just shy of the visible range, the EZ actually absorbs light. The more of the 270 nanometer light the water absorbs, the more EZ water the sample contains. EZ water appears to be quite stable. This means it can hold the structure, even if you leave it sitting around for some time. Water samples from the river Ganges and from the Lourdes in France have been measured, showing spikes in the 270 nanometer region, suggesting these “holy waters” contain high amounts of EZ water. According to Dr. Pollack, there’s compelling evidence that EZ water is indeed lifesaving…
EZ Cellular Water Helps Explain Health Benefits of Light and Heat Therapies

Heating equates to applying infrared energy, and Dr. Pollack has found that if you apply infrared, the EZ water builds and doesn’t diminish. The implications of this are profound when you consider the health benefits of sitting in an infrared sauna, for example. Essentially, one of the reasons why infrared saunas make you feel so good is because your body’s cells are deeply penetrated by infrared energy, which builds and stores EZ water. The same goes for light therapy, spending time in the sun, and laser therapy.

“There are various kinds of light therapy using different wavelengths. We found that all wavelengths – some in particular – of light, even weak light, build EZ. If EZ is critical for the health of your cells, which I think is clear, these therapies have a distinct physical chemical basis,” Dr. Pollack explains.

EZ water also provides a mechanism that explains other biological mysteries. For example, Dr. Pollack describes another fascinating finding that further bolsters our understanding of the mechanism of action behind the health benefits of something as simple as exposing your body to the light and heat of the sun:

“We found that if we put a simple tube, like a straw, made of hydrophilic material, in water… there’s water flow through the tube at high speed. This happens spontaneously. But it shouldn’t happen spontaneously. The common idea is that if you want to drive fluid through a pipe or tube, you need to apply pressure. But we have no pressure here. There’s no pressure difference between the input and output. But flow builds up spontaneously, and it keeps going.

Recently, we found that if we add light, the flow goes faster. It means that light has a particular effect; especially ultraviolet light, but other wavelengths as well. It speeds up the flow. We think that somehow the exclusion zones (EZs) are involved because inside those tubes, there’s a little annular ring of exclusion zone, and inside that is an area full of protons… It seems that the exclusion zone and the pressure of these protons are driving the flow.”

Now, let’s apply these mechanisms to your body. Your capillaries receive radiant energy from outside all the time. Energy is also received from the inside of your body, as metabolic reactions continuously generate heat or infrared. So the question is, is it possible that the flow of blood occurring through your capillaries is automatically enhanced by exposure to light? It appears the answer may be yes…

“This is an important issue because the capillaries are puzzling,” Dr. Pollack says. “They’re so small. Some of the capillaries are smaller in diameter than the red blood cells that pass through them. Any competent engineer would never build a pipe that’s smaller than the junk that’s supposed to go through. But nature, apparently, has done that…

Now, that means there’s a lot of resistance. You need something to push those red blood cells through… One possibility is that the flow in your capillaries is aided by this kind of radiant energy… We’re starting to test this… It’s possible that your cardiovascular system is assisted by radiant energy in the same way that the flow in the tubes is assisted by radiant energy.”

One of the more interesting healing modalities I’ve been exploring lately is the use of a high-powered laser. The K-Laser also has frequencies in the infrared range, which can deeply penetrate tissue. This kind of laser therapy has shown to provide profound healing for many painful injuries in a very short amount of time—sometimes just minutes of treatment. While the benefits of laser therapy are thought to be due to its action on mitochondrial activity, it may very well be that the benefits are also related to “recharging” your damaged cells’ EZ water, as well as promoting increased capillary blood flow.

EZ water in your body also plays a role is in hyperbaric medicine, which is also good for injuries. In that case, your tissues are exposed to high oxygen under pressure.

“The results are in. We think we understand the mechanism as to why hyperbaric oxygen is so effective for wound healing… EZ water has a higher density than bulk water. If you take H2O and you put it under pressure, it should give you H3O2 because the EZ structure is denser than the H2O. We did the experiments and we found, indeed, that’s the case. If you put H2O under pressure, you get more EZ water.”

The same goes for oxygen. EZ also has more oxygen than H2O, and when you increase oxygen content, you get more EZ water. So, hyperbaric treatment builds EZ water in your body, particularly in injured areas where EZ water is needed.
Alkalinity and Your Body’s Negative Charge May Be Critical for Health

I personally drink vortexed water nearly exclusively as I became a big fan of Viktor Schauberger who did much pioneering work on vortexing about a century ago. Dr. Pollack found that by creating a vortex in a glass of water, you’re putting more energy into it, thereby increasing EZ. According to Dr. Pollack, virtually ANY energy put into the water seems to create or build EZ water.

“We have looked at acoustic energy that seems to effect some change in the water. We’re still not sure exactly what. Vortexed water puts enormous energy into the water. There are several groups in Europe studying this phenomenon right now. “

As mentioned earlier, EZ water is alkaline and carries a negative charge. Maintaining this state of alkalinity and negative charge appears to be important for optimal health. Drinking water can be optimized in a variety of different ways, by injecting light energy or physical energy into the water by vortexing, for example. This is fairly easy using magnets. Reversing the vortex every few seconds may even create more energy.

Clearly, more research needs to be done in this area, but some is already underway. My own R&D team is working on a careful study in which we use vortexed water to grow sprouts, to evaluate the vitality and effectiveness of the water.

 As for a natural source of EZ water for drinking, an ideal source is glacial melt. Unfortunately, this is extremely inaccessible for most people. Another good source is water from deep sources, such as deep spring water. The deeper the better, as EZ water is created under pressure. Natural spring water is another excellent way to obtain this type of water and you can use FindaSpring.com2  to help you find one close to you.

Besides optimizing the water you drink, you can help generate an electron surplus, or support this negative charge within your body, simply by connecting to the Earth, which also has a negative charge. This is the basis of the earthing or grounding technique, which has been shown to have significant health benefits by allowing the transfer of negatively charged electrons from the ground into the soles of your feet. In a sense, it’s as though your cells are built like batteries that are naturally recharged by spending time outdoors—whether sunny or overcast, and walking barefoot, connecting to the negative charge of the earth!

“If you have an organ that’s not functioning well—for example, it’s lacking that negative charge—then the negative charge from the earth and… [drinking] EZ water can help restore that negativity. I’ve become convinced… that this negative charge is critical for healthy function,” Dr. Pollack says.



The Fourth Phase of Water: Beyond Solid, Liquid, and Vapor

(An Interview with Dr. Gerald Pollack)

DM: Dr. Joseph Mercola GP: Dr. Gerald Pollack

Introduction:

By Dr. Joseph Mercola

DM: Welcome, everyone. This is Dr. Mercola. Today we are honored to have Dr. Gerald Pollack, who is clearly one of the leading premier research scientists in the world when it comes to understanding the physics of water – so much so that, in fact, he even founded and is the editor-in-chief of a whole scientific journal on that called Water. He has published a large number of peer-reviewed scientific journals and publications and has also received even prestigious awards from the National Institutes of Health. He is a well-respected researcher.

We are just delighted to have him today. So, welcome and thank you for joining us today, Dr. Pollack.

GP: Well, thank you, Dr. Mercola. It’s great to be here. I’m delighted to do so. Yeah, thank you. The book on this subject has just emerged. I’m so excited to have an opportunity to talk about it somewhat. I’ll be happy to answer any questions that you may have on the subject. Or would you like me to just begin?

DM: Well, let me first mention that we have interviewed you before. There’s a previous interview we had that was really widely received. Many people appreciated that. So, maybe you can update us from that. But before that, for those who haven’t seen that previous video, if you could help us understand how you acquired your expertise and how you became passionate about this subject. It will sort of frame the whole process for people.

GP: Right. I actually became passionate about water after meeting a pioneer in the field. His name is Gilbert Ling. Gilbert came from China in the late 1940s. He’s now about 95 years old. I met him. I knew that he had some ideas about water in the cell, that the water in the cell was not just ordinary bulk water. Actually, the water was structured and organized in some way.

I became intrigued – this was about 25 years ago – by what he had to say on the subject. I began reading his books. By now, he has five books on the subject. I gave them also to my students and my post-docs. I found that every one of them thought that Ling was either right or almost right. I began to think about water in the context of biology: if water inside the cell was ordered and structured and not bulk water or ordinary water as most biochemists and cell biologists think, then it is really important.

That’s what began the passionate approach to water. I think Ling is right, and there’s so much more to be said about water.

DM: And your formal academic training, if you could just review that. Are you a full professor at the University of Washington?

GP: Right, yeah, in the department of bioengineering for 30 years approximately in Seattle. My original training, my Ph.D. at the University of Washington was in the field of biomedical engineering. But I began studying muscles. I spent many years deeply involved, deeply engaged with an understanding of the function at the molecular level of muscles. How do muscles actually contract?

There was a theory that has been around for quite a while. It was put forward by the late and distinguished Nobel laureate, Sir Andrew Huxley. I had some questions about that particular theory. I was influenced a lot by a colleague of mine who told me that not only was his theory wrong, but it was impossible. I began in my career thinking about those issues and thinking about alternative mechanisms.

One of the things that struck me was when you look at the textbook and look just to see how the textbook reports that muscle contracts at the molecular level, there’s one thing that’s deleted – that’s water. There’s no water that’s included. If you look at the diagrams of muscles, you can see proteins, protein filaments, that anybody who studied knows well about. But there’s no water.

It struck me that since muscle is two-thirds water… Actually, that two-thirds translates if you… Because molecules are so small, it translates to 99 percent of all the molecules in the muscle. In fact, all the molecules in your body, 99 percent of them are water. How could it be that 99 percent of the molecules were ignored? How could it be that muscle contracts without involving the water in some way? That was kind of a trigger for my passion.

DM: Yeah. When I lecture, I frequently explain to people… Because most of the people I lecture to are passionate about health, and they’re all really applying a lot of the basics. But I’m saying, “If you have a relative or a friend who’s starting to put their toe in the water and starting to get interested in health, the best and most important thing you can do is to get them to drink clean, pure water and stop drinking soda. The average person is drinking 56 gallons of soda a year – diet and regular soda.

As you just mentioned, water is such an integral part of our body. I think it’s really a hidden part of the equation. I mean, not hidden, but it’s an unappreciated part. That’s why I’m so delighted to have you. In fact, I neglected to mention in your introduction that you have written a new book on this subject which is Water: The Fourth Dimension, a phenomenal book and easy to understand.

This could be a really complex topic with very complicated physics, which you understand better than anyone. But I just so appreciate the way you put that book together. It’s written in a way where the average person who didn’t really even finish high school could understand it – tremendous diagrams, easy language, and phenomenal communication skills. So, congratulations. I highly recommend that book.

GP: Oh, thank you so much. Actually, the title is almost correct. It’s called The Fourth Phase of Water.

DM: Okay, The Fourth Phase of Water. Okay, I’m sorry.

GP: No, it’s definitely okay. The Fourth Phase of Water: Beyond Solid, Liquid, and Vapor. I thank you for the comments. The diagrams and pictures, they were sort of , which helps the understanding on… I’m really proud that my son, who is an artist, had volunteered to do those drawings. Many people have commented that the drawings are so helpful in portraying what I was trying to say.

Yeah, the book, well, it’s about physics and chemistry. I tried to present it in a way that is understandable. Because I have, like my passion for water, a passion for clarity. I think it’s important to bring these messages through in a clear and distinct way that everybody doesn’t need to be an expert in any particular field to get the message.

There’s been so much about water that has not been clear at all. I began scratching my head and thinking about it, as I imagine, from the time that I met Gilbert Ling and was persuaded by his writings and his persona that there is something really central about water.

I totally agree with you that the kinds of soda, the sugary drinks that people enjoy, that’s not the best route toward health. There are many kinds of water that are better. I think we can talk about those later if you like.

But the book itself, I was so excited to put this together. I’m so excited to receive the wonderful comments and the feedbacks that I’ve gotten. The book touches on the most basic features of water, a lot of which are really not understood. For example, how does evaporation take place? Why does a tea kettle whistle?

What about freezing? Freezing is supposed to occur at zero degrees Celsius. But in fact, experiment shows that it can freeze in many different temperatures down to minus 50 degrees Celsius. There’s no one single freezing point. Other experiments show that even boiling point of 100 degrees Celsius (or 212 degrees Fahrenheit) is not always true.

Even the most fundamental ideas about water that we’ve all held along with the physics and chemistry of water are really not so clear. The book makes an attempt to clarify those issues in a way that’s understandable to non-experts.

DM: Can you highlight some of the concepts that the book seeks to explain and maybe some of the insights and things you’ve been working on since the last time we talked?

GP: Okay. The fundamental issue is at the central core issue of the book. That’s why it’s called the Fourth Phase of Water, because there is a fourth phase of water. We call this the exclusion zone or EZ. We call it exclusion zone because the first thing we found out about it is that it excludes things profoundly. Even the small molecules are excluded from it. So, we adopted the name exclusion zone. But we found out so much more about the exclusion zone.

[inaudible 06:48]

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We found out that it’s a structure that’s different from ordinary water. We all know that water is H2O, but this fourth phase is not H2O. According to the structure that we think is the real structure, it’s actually H3O2, not H2O.

DM: Oh, interesting.

GP: It’s a kind of structure. The surprise is that it appears in great abundance. As I mentioned, it’s in the inside of your cell. The evidence that we have is that it fills most of your cells. Even the extracellular tissue is filled with this kind of water. An interesting insight is, you know, everybody knows that the cell is negatively charged. If you fit an electrode into any of your cells, you’ll make a negative electron potential.

The textbook says that the reason for this negative electrical potential has something to do with the membrane and the ion channels in the membrane. Oddly, if you look at a gel that has no membrane, you record exactly the same potential – 100 milligauss or 160 milligauss negative. It’s kind of surprising that something without a membrane with the same electrical potential in the inside are much the same as the cell. From a physical chemical point of view, it has the same electrical potential as that of the cell.

That raises the question: where does this negativity come from? Well, I think the negativity comes from the water, because we found that this kind of EZ water has a negative charge. A negative charge is actually what gives it this structure H3O2. Because to balance the charge, we need twice as many hydrogens and oxygens as in H2O. But you don’t quite have that much, so this water tends to be negatively charged.

If you go back to the cell and ask yourself, well, you know, “Why does the cell have negative electrical charge?” I think the simplest direct answer is that it’s got lots of EZ water, which has a negative charge, and so is a gel. I think that’s the reason why our cells are negatively charged. In fact, if I may go on…

DM: Well, let me ask you one question, because it’s a really important concept that you brought up: the difference between the chemical structure that’s really noted throughout the world for many, many centuries as H2O is really… In fact, you’re finding this EZ water, which is more of biologically vital water, as H3O2. This is the EZ. Can you tell me how? The obvious question that probably everyone is thinking is why didn’t they understand that? How was this missed – something so obvious?

GP: That’s a good question. You have to look at the history of the research of water. At one time, around 50 years ago approximately, water was a very central feature of scientific research. In fact, the father of modern biochemistry, Dr. Albert Szent-Györgyi, a brilliant, totally brilliant, Nobel-est of Nobel-est, was so intrigued and knew that water was absolutely central to all in biology. In fact, one of his famous quotes is “Life is water dancing to the tune of molecules.” Water, they’re going to have them and actually many others, including Russians. It was very central to every technique.

Then came a guy, a Russian guy named Derjaguin. Derjaguin found some interesting stuff about water. This was in the 1960s. It was the time of the Cold War – I mean, the West and the East. As you know, there was lots of tension between the two. Derjaguin was the most famous

[inaudible 10:21]

physical chemist in all of Russia, Boris Derjaguin. Derjaguin was a legendary figure. Derjaguin became enthralled with this interesting finding. He had to do experiments and publish many papers on this.

What they found was that water was not the usual three phases of solid, liquid, and vapor. There was something odd, something different. What they did in their experiments was they put water in very thin capillary tubes, just simple tubes made of quartz. They looked at the properties. Every property that they measured was different from ordinary water. This was a really fascinating discovery. Derjaguin thought that this must be something like a new phase of water.

Finally, in the late 1960s – this was 10 years after the Russians published a lot of papers on it – it got to the West. It was translated. Most of the people in the West thought not much of Russian science, because of a lot of propaganda. In fact, Russian science was quite ahead of a lot of other science. The response from the West was either, well, you know, “We’re going to take this science and really do something with it,” or “We are going to demonstrate that the Russians are idiots.” A few people attempted to do the latter.

What one group found and reported is that this water… The reason that this water got these distinctive, unusual properties (which I think is very similar to what we’re finding) was that the water was not pure water, as the Russians had suggested. But actually the water had leached some silica from the glass, from the quartz of the tube. In fact, it wasn’t pure water; it was a silica gel. That’s the reason why this water had these unusual properties. It’s got to be a big joke on the Russians.

Some group found also that if you put salt to the water and you measure the Raman spectra, which is used frequently by physical chemists, in fact, this water has exactly the same properties as the Russians’. So, they said, “Well, the Russians must have been sweating into their water.” It was a big joke. This water came to be known as the so-called polywater, because it behaved as though the water was not simply a group of molecules, but a group of connective molecules like a polymer. It was a big joke on the Russians and still remains a joke.

That was one thing that began to dissuade people from studying water, even though it’s been a hot topic before that. They think that, “Well, if the greatest biochemist and physical chemist in all of Russia could screw up so badly, then what about the mortals like us?” There was a sense of staying away.

Then there was a bit of resurgence and then something else happened, which turned out to be even worse. It had to do with the so-called water memory. Some of your viewers may be familiar with that, because this is another debacle that took place in 1989, so not so long ago.

There was a French group. The French group found that if you took water and you diluted it, many, many times, the highly diluted water, as in homeopathy, have virtually the same properties as the original. You put a substance in water. You dilute it. [Count] one to 10, take that and dilute it. [Count] one to 10, shake it in between, take that, and dilute it. [Count] one to 10, etc. You can do a hundred dilutions and more and still the biological impact of that diluted material was always the same as the concentrated material prior to any kinds of dilution.

Of course, a lot of people were not happy with that. The story is that a group was sent to their laboratory, put together by the administrative staff of the general to check it

[inaudible 18:24]

out. They sent a magician, Randi the Magician. The group got together. After spending a few days and watching them do their experiments, some of which actually turned out to be positive. They concluded that – since when the group did the experiments, the visiting group couldn’t repeat the same result – it must be some kind of an artifact.

Anyway, there’s a lot to be told about that story. It’s in my book. There are some real surprises that come beyond that.

But the point, to answer your question, is that there were two serious debacles that took place: polywater and water memory. And they’re fresh in our memory.

Let me just go back to water memory. The idea is that because these solutions were so diluted, the water itself might hold memory of the molecules that had been there originally. That’s why they called it water memory.

Anyway, the problem was with the two debacles taking place, a lot of scientists were really reluctant to study water. That’s part of it. The other part is that everybody thinks, “Well, you know, water is the most common substance on the face of the Earth. It’s so simple. It’s H2O. It must have been researched exhaustively. Therefore, there’s really not much to be learned about water.” That’s the one side.

The other side is that anomalies keep piling up. There’s a famous website put together by a British scientist, Martin Chaplin. If you click on “Water,” it’s probably what you’ll get to first. Martin lists numerous anomalies associated with water.

In other words, things that shouldn’t be according to what we know about water. You can think of anomalies as well, you know. It just doesn’t fit. But the flip side is that these anomalies keep piling up. The more anomalies we have, the more we begin to think that maybe there’s something fundamental about water that we really don’t know. That’s the core of what I’m trying to do.

In our laboratory at the University of Washington, we’ve done many experiments over the last decade. These experiments have clearly shown the existence of this additional phase of water. I think this additional phase clears up a lot of those anomalies. I think they’re not anomalies anymore.

DM: Yeah, they aren’t.

GP: They are explained within the framework of this new vision of water.

DM: Thank you for providing us with that background. I’m still wondering, though, about the difference between regular water and the EZ water. Is that the H3O2 water? I mean, can you process water in a way such as the water that winds up in soda or that comes through most municipal taps afterwards – cleansed, chlorinated, and fluoridated typically – and driven through all these cylindrical pipes… Does that damage the structure in a way that it goes from regular EZ water to regular H2O?

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GP: Yeah, I think what I need to do is go back a step before I answer your question and tell you how this water actually forms.

DM: Okay.

GP: I didn’t do that yet. The key ingredient is light. That’s a real surprise. By light, I mean, generically, electromagnetic energy. Light might contain the visible light, the visible wavelengths that we use to see, also ultraviolet (UV) wavelengths, and especially infrared wavelengths. Infrared is around us all the time.

DM: Are there any frequencies that are particularly more useful to generate EZ? Is it the infrared or the ultraviolet? Or do you need all of them?

GP: We don’t have this EZ, EZED, or whatever you would like to say of this EZ water. It’s still by light energy. We found that infrared is actually the most powerful, particularly at wavelengths of three micrometers approximately. That’s all around us. We found in experiments that if we take some surface – we’re talking about a hydrophilic or water-loving surface – it just

up against the water. You have infrared energy available, which is always available.

This doesn’t build automatically. It builds and builds and have layer upon layer of this kind of, we say, EZ water. It can build to millions of molecular layers. That’s what’s a bit different from what the physical chemists had thought previously. General physical chemistry presumes that next to this charge or hydrophilic molecules, which fill our cells and are all over, that we may have water, inert layers of water. What we found is that that’s not true: this kind of energy builds this kind of water and builds a lot of it all over the place in instances we don’t even really think about – for example, the surface of water, the water-air interphase.

So, your question gets back to how do we build this stuff or can we build it? The answers are not all in, but I think we can build it. First of all, it actually occurs in nature. The first point is if you take ice melt. One point that we found is that in order to create ice… Molecularly, ice doesn’t form directly from ordinary bulk water. You need to go from bulk water to EZ water to ice. When you melt it, you go from ice to EZ water to bulk water. The EZ water is an intermediate.

If you take, for example, glacial melt, glacial melt contains abundant EZ water. That’s one way to create it. Nature creates it. Nature is very straightforward in doing this all the time. That’s the reason why if you look at glacial melts… For example, I noticed in a recent trip to Innsbruck (but not only there), the water that comes from the Alps also the water that comes locally from the cascades, it has a deep blue green tint to it.

You wonder. The fresh melt has this greenish color, but as it progresses on to bigger bodies of water like lakes, it loses this tint. Some people think, “Well, it’s probably the minerals” or something like that. That could be true. But I think it has to do with the fact that it contains a lot of EZ water and EZ water fluorescence. When the light comes in from up above, you see fluorescence. It’s a good sign that it probably contains a lot of EZ water.

Glacial melt is a perfect way to get EZ water. A lot of people have known that this water is really good for your health. That’s one.

[inaudible

22:57]

DM: But that’s not very easy to get. But it definitely implies the question: how stable is this EZ water? I mean, does it dissociate over minutes or hours? Or is it stable for weeks or months?

GP: As I said, the answer is not completely in about this yet. But I think that there is some evidence for us to do it. I’ll tell you why. A colleague of mine has been producing some water, which he claims has real health benefits. In fact, he claims that it can reverse pathologies. I’ve seen some evidence of hospital records demonstrating such. I tell them, “Please send me some of your water. We want to test it.” He sent it. I had it sitting on my desk. It had been gazing at me for two or three months before, finally, we got around to test it.

The kind of testing that we often do is to put it in a spectrometer. It’s called the UV-visible spectrometer. It measures light absorption at different wavelengths. We found during our studies something that absorbs light. It’s in UV region of 270 nanometers, just shy of a visible range. The more it absorbs the 270 nanometer nearby, the more it contains EZ water. We measured this two to three months after it was sent. We found a giant peak – 270 nanometers. I think it’s stable.

Another laboratory took some of the famous healing waters from the Ganges and from Lourdes in France, brought it back to their laboratory, tested it, and showed it at a meeting, a scientific meeting on water. They weren’t particularly concerned about the 270-nanometer absorption. They didn’t know about it. They just showed various slide. I saw on those slides that each and every one of those healing waters contain this 270-nanometer absorption thing.

The answer to your question, I think, is not absolutely clear. But it appears that this water is actually lifesaving.

DM: Is there any processing that we do such as heating the water or adding other constituents to it that might dissociate the EZ water?

GP: If you boil water quickly in the microwave, that might be. I’m not sure. We haven’t done that, but it’s possible. However, if you heat something, if you heat something gently… Heating is really the same as applying infrared energy.

DM: Right.

GP: Because heat and infrared are practically synonymous. We found that if you apply infrared, the EZ (or if anything) builds, it doesn’t diminish. For example, if you go to a sauna, you feel really good afterwards. It’s possible that what the sauna is really doing is that the infrared energy that you absorb (or I absorb) is penetrating inside the body in some way that it’s going to create not so much. In other wavelengths, it penetrates quite deeply.

This is actually… It’s not just a psychological experience. It’s a physical experience that your EZ water, which you need to be perfectly fit, is getting built up by this infrared energy. I say, it’s really the opposite of what you might be suggesting.

DM: Interesting.

GP: That’s the same thing with light therapy. There are various kinds of light therapy using different wavelengths. We found that all wavelengths – some in particular – of light, weak light,

even build EZ. If EZ is critical for the health of your cells, which I think is clear, these therapies have a distinct physical chemical basis. It’s not just…

DM: That is absolutely fascinating because it does provide an explanation for some of the benefits of infrared saunas. Not only that, but also of going outside in the sun and exposing your skin to plenty of sunshine, which we know is loaded with plenty of infrared. But much of the benefit of that exposure, it is currently believed to be mediated through the increase in vitamin D.

Although that is certainly useful, we know there are other benefits. This could be one of the biggest ones, maybe even as big or bigger than vitamin D.

GP: The sun is interesting. A colleague of mine from New Zealand suffers from severe hypertension. He records his blood pressure at 20- or 30-minute intervals throughout the day. What he does for his therapy is he lies under the sun. He records practically each and every time that his blood pressure goes down significantly.

I’ve looked at the records that he sent me. His track is practically for years. He just keeps doing it to remain healthy. Some of the results are really dramatic. He finds pressure reduction sometimes almost a factor of two. It’s really dramatic when he goes under the sun. I can’t recall how long the effect persists, but the sun absolutely is doing something to us.

I think you’re right on by thinking that it may be the infrared energy, but the UV also has an effect. We’re finding that ultraviolet can actually build the charge in these exclusions of light. I didn’t mention in detail, except in the context of cell electrical potential. This is usually as a negative charge. It seems that UV is particularly adept in building this negative charge. We have preliminary evidence, but it’s not quite clear. That’s really an important implication.

DM: Sure. GP: There’s been one more related issue. If you don’t have a pressing question, I can… DM: No, go ahead. Sure, go ahead.

GP: Okay. Well, we found that if we put tubes – simple tubes like a straw made of hydrophilic material – in water, we found something strange and interesting, quite repeatable. We found that the flow inside these tubes, there’s water flow that goes through the tubes at clearly high speed. This happens spontaneously.

It shouldn’t happen spontaneously. Because usually, the common idea is that if you want to drive fluid through a pipe or anything just like these hydrophilic tubes, you need pressure. You need pressure to drive that fluid through. But apparently, we have no pressure here. There’s no pressure difference between the in-back and out-back. But flow after a minute or two builds up spontaneously. It keeps going.

Recently, we found that if we add light, the flow goes faster. It means that light has a particular effect, particularly ultraviolet light in this case but other wavelengths as well. It speeds up the flow. We think that somehow the exclusion zones (EZ) are involved with it. Because inside those tubes, there’s a little ring of exclusion zone, and inside that is an area full of protons. We won’t

[----- 30:00 -----]

go in great detail. It seems that the exclusion zone and the protons are somehow at the pressure of these protons that are actually driving the flow.

Now, that’s kind of interesting in and of itself. But when you think about your capillaries, when you think of the fact that the capillaries inside your body are receiving radiant energy from outside all the time and even inside, as metabolic reactions are always generating heat or infrared. If you think about that, your capillaries and my capillaries are receiving light, so to speak (I’m talking now about infrared light) all the time.

The question is: is it similar to what we observed in the laboratory, where we know that the flow goes through the tubes and the flow is enhanced by light? The question is: could the same thing be happening in your capillaries?

This is an important issue because the capillaries are puzzling. They’re so small. Some of the capillaries are smaller in diameter than the red blood cells that pass through them. Nature seems to have heard it in some way, because any competent engineer would never build a tube or a pipe that’s smaller than the junk that’s supposed to go through. But nature, apparently, has done that.

If you look at the videos of red blood cells passing through these tubes, they squeeze through. They have to bend and swirl in order to get through. Now, that means there’s a lot of resistance there. You need something to push those red blood cells through. And so what is it?

A possibility is that the flow in your capillaries is aided by this kind of radiant energy that passes through in some way. We’re starting to test this. We haven’t. The experiments are just in the conceptual stage. But it’s possible that your cardiovascular system is assisted by radiant energy in the same way that the flow in the tubes is assisted by radiant energy.

DM: Fascinating information. One of the interesting healing modalities that I’ve recently been exploring is the use of a high-powered laser on the order of a 15-watt laser. Most laser pointers that people are familiar with are typically milliwatts, like five milliwatts. This is a 15-watt laser, literally 3,000 times stronger. But the other component of it is that it has two frequencies that are both in the infrared range, which penetrate the tissue. From the limited use I’ve had with it, it’s just extraordinary and profoundly healing for many injuries.

I’m wondering, you know. They have their mechanisms, which typically have to do more with mitochondrial and some other physics components. But they don’t know anything about this EZ water. It would seem to me that would be another modality in maybe even increasing capillary flow, but providing that energy deep into the tissue.

GP: That’s quite possible. I’m not sure what wavelengths you’re talking about.

DM: Yeah, I think they’re like in 900s – 930 or 960 nanometers.

GP: Okay, yeah. Those wavelengths will actually penetrate nicely into tissue. In fact, some of the brain scans that are done through the skull, I think, use slightly lower and shorter wavelengths than those. They do… You can get images that go through the skull. The energy is radiated back and there is enough to give you a good image of the brain. They get through.

get through as well. Probably the wavelengths that you’re talking about penetrate really deeply.

[Inaudible 36:54]

I agree with you. I think what’s going on is probably the buildup of EZ water, because we know it occurs especially with infrared energy. This could be a really powerful tool. I mean, I guess it will be.

DM: Well, it provides a mechanism that explains a lot of mysteries in the body. That’s what I was looking for, these mechanisms. Because it would seem to me, if energy is what provides the EZ water and it gets dissipated, especially when your red blood cells are using it up as they travel through the capillaries, that there might be a relative deficiency of it over time, especially in injured areas. The body needs some type of mechanisms to rebuild that energy to allow the biology to work properly.

GP: I think we’re thinking along precisely the same lines. That’s really what’s going on. I think you’re right, especially during injury. Another example that’s related to that is hyperbaric medicine. That seems also to be good for injuries. You ask yourself, “Well, what could be going on?” In that case, it’s high oxygen and it’s under pressure.

We did some experiments. The results are in. We think we understand the mechanism as to why hyperbaric oxygen is effective for wound healing as it seems to be. EZ water has a higher density than bulk water. If you think about it, if you take bulk water…

DM: Excuse me for a second. What is your definition of bulk water? GP: Oh, sorry. Bulk water is simply H2O. DM: Okay.

GP: Okay, so you take H2O. Usually, it exists in some combination of H2O and H3O2. That’s what really is different about the common belief. If you take H2O and you put it under pressure, it should give you H3O2 because the EZ structure is denser than the H2O. We did the experiments and we found, indeed, that’s the case. If you put pressure, you get more EZ water. Now, oxygen, EZ has more oxygen than H2O. That oxygen, you should get more EZ water. We did that experiment, and that’s also the case.

The reason, I think, why hyperbaric oxygen seems to be as effective as it is is it’s building EZ water in your body and particularly in injured areas where EZ is needed. Because what’s injury? Well, the ordinary function, ordinary cell behavior, the ordinary cell will not function in there. They’re injured, right? You want to build up, build health into that cell.

What do you need to build health? Well, you need proteins, because proteins do the work. Every protein has water around – EZ water, a sheath of EZ water surrounding it. You need to fill it up with protein and EZ water. These various mechanisms that we’ve been talking about – pressure, oxygen, light, and infrared energy – they all build EZ water.

Therefore, I think, this is the central mechanism by which these very simple mechanisms build health or restore health.

DM: That’s fascinating. You know, two of my recent passions relatively within the last year or so are these areas: water and then also how it performs in agriculture. I think they’re integrated

[----- 40:00 -----]

because this EZ water is also not only useful for us, but it’s also useful for plants. Understanding that, I think, provides benefits in both worlds.

But one of the areas that I’ve been studying (I actually purchased most of his books, but I haven’t had a chance to read them yet) is Viktor Schauberger, who is really recognized as an expert in this area, particularly with vortexing the water. I’m wondering if the physical kinetic energy that is done in a vortex is actually another type of energy that can create EZ water.

GP: I think it’s likely. We started some experiments, but nothing is conclusive. Schauberger was amazing. He’s a hero to almost anybody who studies water. But you know, he was a naturalist, not a trained scientist. But his observations in water, especially buoyancies in vortex water, are amazing. Because he does not speak the same scientific language, sometimes his readings are a bit difficult. But he’s a hero to so many people.

I think you’re right about vortex water. You’re putting energy into the water. From my experience, almost any energy that you put into the water seems to create EZ water. We have looked at acoustic energy that seems to affect some change in the water. We’re still not sure exactly what. Vortex water puts enormous energy into the water. There are several groups in Europe studying this phenomenon right now.

Yes, it’s interesting. Schauberger had many, many passions even besides water. He was involved with some so-called lifting devices. I’m not sure if you were aware of this. This is another area, completely different from muscle. But he demonstrated… He’s Austrian. He was recruited by force to work for the Nazis in order to avoid execution. He began working on some devices, the so-called lifters, that looked something like flying saucers. It’s documented that these things actually lift off.

Modern incarnations of that – he was the pioneer – involved very simple devices which you can connect to a power supply. They’re purely passive. You just take two electrodes, connect to it, and these devices rise off. We have one in the laboratory. Just turn on 10,000 volts, a very lightweight frame, two electrodes running around the device, and they lift. It’s kind of an anti- gravity rise. You can find it on the Internet. If anybody wants, search it under “lifters.”

Anyway, going back, Schauberger was a total pioneer. I hope you do kind of read his stuff. Several people have written books about his work. There’s also an archive in the center of Austria that’s being built by his grandson. He’s really a hero.

He also spoke about “life water” or “living water” as opposed to dead water. That, to me – the so-called living water – translates to EZ water, because EZ water has energy – it has charge. The H2O next to it bears opposite charge. When you build EZ water, you have something like a battery. EZ is charged and the water next to it has opposite charge. We found that that battery can deliver energy.

I’m not sure if we could use the term that Schauberger used, which is “living water.” But you know, it’s pretty close to an . It’s not like distilled water, which is basically dead water. So, good luck with the Schauberger.

[inaudible 44:24]

DM: Yeah, if anyone else is interested, getting his books is not easy. It’s typically several months’ process because they’re not readily available. But I’ve gotten my first one, at least all of them. He’s written so many. But I’ve got them on order and hope to divulge them as time allows.

One of the other things that occur when you incorporate this energy to create this EZ water… I wonder if you can comment on some of the changes. I think you alluded to earlier a change in the pH, the electronegativity (or sometimes called the oxidation reduction potential (ORP), of course, the structure, and the oxygen content. [There are] lots of things happening. I’m wondering if you can describe the physics that help differentiate EZ water from bulk water.

GP: Practically, every property that we’ve measured in this water is different from bulk water – H2O. You mentioned some viscosity; it’s more viscous. For example, if you think of an egg white, it has a pretty high viscosity. Egg white is full of this. Egg white has proteins and all proteins are surrounded by this kind of water, so it’s viscous. And EZ water is viscous.

Optical properties are different. Recently, two different Russian groups began studying the optical properties. Now, you don’t ordinarily think of optical properties being too interesting, but they actually give you a sense of density.

For example, refracted index, both Russian groups independently, they don’t know. I don’t know. They’re both from Moscow. They studied the refractive index of this EZ water. They found it was higher by about 10 percent than ordinary water. It’s sort of like a lens. The lens of your camera has a refractive index that’s higher than the air around it, so it bends light. This does the same. It has a higher refractive index.

But from the point of view of understanding water, what we know from this is that the density is higher – 10 percent approximately higher than [bulk] water. You don’t have a tendency to sink. That’s another aspect. It’s ordered as another aspect.

People measure optical birefringence. Birefringence is again another measurement that can tell you if molecules are ordered or not ordered. Here, they’re highly ordered. In fact – this was so long ago by Mae-Wan Ho. Mae-Wan Ho is a biophysicist who now runs the Institute of Science in Society, a very interesting kind of a weekly newsletter from her.

In a former incarnation, she studied water. She studied animals and looked at some intact animals. I believe they were worms of some sort. She could see just in a very highly developed microscope with super detectability in birefringence different regions with different colors, indicating that these were high in birefringence. That means that large regions have continuous molecular ordering of water that’s inside them. It was very interesting. There were beautiful pictures in her book The Rainbow and the Worm. It’s very much worth having.

Birefringence as showing order is another property. I’m trying to think about…

DM: What type of pH changes are you seeing? Does it turn the water more alkaline?

GP: Yes. The water is definitely more alkaline. We can measure this using of pH probe, a very pH probe, and look at this kind of water. Or you can actually use a pH-sensitive dye as in litmus paper. It’s not so easy to use the dye, because the dye is excluded from the

[inaudible 48:34]

exclusion zone. We can look just beyond the exclusion zone, which has a lot of positive charge or a lot of protons. We find that the dye shows a huge amount of proton content.

In fact, when we get our first experiments on this, one of the first things we found… We put a gel in the water and we knew that next to the gel is the exclusion zone. We put some dye in the water, and we expected that just beyond the exclusion zone are a lot of protons (positive charged). Now we had a pH down to 1.

DM: Wow.

GP: The pH 1 is awfully acidic, awfully high in content. As soon as we’re working on this, we just felt uneasy. How could pH be 1? Something is really wrong with this. We acted quick. We’re on to do something else because we felt uneasy. We repeated those experiments many times, and again the pH of the region just beyond the exclusion zone is very low. It’s just filled with protons. The pH of the exclusion zone or EZ water, it’s high. It’s in the order of…

Well, I kind of hesitate to give a value because pH usually is defined in liquids, in aqueous solution, and this exclusion zone is really not exactly an aqueous solution. See, it’s more like a gel. It’s hard really to define pH.

But one of the things we’ve learned from that’s related to the pH and the question that you asked is that, you know, we all think that everything is neutral. It makes sense, right? They have negative charge. Positive charge is actually going to compensate and we achieve neutrality. Every physical chemistry book tells you that things are neutral. It’s absolutely sensible that systems go toward neutrality.

However, when you think of aqueous systems getting energy, continuous energy coming in from the environment, it may be possible to actually build regions with net charge either positive or negative. I think that’s what we have here. We have net charge. I’ve experienced it myself.

One group producing an interesting kind of water, which they claim has good health benefits, they asked me to touch the water. I reached out my hand, put my finger in the water, and I got shocked. My colleague didn’t say it – he also got a shock. Something is going on with the water. I think water can store charge. I think our body can store charge as well.

If you allow me a radical point of view, I think that you are negatively charged. I hesitate to use the word “negative” because you’re so positive, right? But I think you are. And I think I am and all of us are.

The reason I say this is very simple. You’re mostly cells. You’re built [in a way that] 60 percent of your mass is cells. The cells are negatively charged. If you just start by adding that, you are negative. Now, the extracellular tissues – collagen and elastin – they’re negatively charged proteins and they attract a lot EZ water. Much of the extracellular mass is also negatively charged. You start building up negatively charged cells, outside the cells. You start thinking about it.

[----- 50:00 -----]

One of the regions inside your body that are actually positively charged… Well, urine has a fairly low pH. I think 5, 6, or something. It might contain some positive charges. Maybe your gastrointestinal system or your stomach has a low pH. There are a few compartments that are positively charged. But mostly, you’re trying to get rid of that stuff – your feces. Your body is saying that we’ve got to get rid of this positively charged stuff because we want to maintain negativity.

New hypothesis: we’re all negative, actually net negative charge, and you might say “alkaline,” if you will. We’re alkaline or negatively charged. We strive to – in all we do – maintain that negative charge and maintaining that negative charge may be important to maintaining health or life, including plants. Plants are connected to the ground.

As we all know, although I just learned five years ago, and many people don’t really know. It’s known 50 years ago by practically everyone in science that the earth actually is negatively charged. You can find it if you look at the lectures of the great Richard Feynmen, the Nobel Prize-winning physicist. His famous lectures are used by every graduate student in physics practically. Volume II, Chapter Nine talks about the negative charge of the earth. I mean, that’s beside the point, but…

DM: No, it’s an important one. I think part of the reason why we are negatively charged is that our ancestors at least regularly connected with the earth without shoes on or, at least non- conducting soles, so that those electrons from the earth transferred to their body and help build this electronegativity up.

GP: Absolutely. I think that’s a point. Plants are permanently connected to the earth, so there’s no doubt about their negativity. But sure, that’s the basis of the earthing technique. I know a lot of people are using that. I know it makes so much sense that the negative charge of the earth, as you point out, is transferred to you.

If you have an organ that’s not functioning well, for example, it’s lacking that negative charge, well, the negative charge from the earth and also the other methods that we talked about, including EZ water, can help restore that negativity. I’ve become convinced during the past months that this negativity that we have (I wish it were called positivity because I like that term better, but it’s negative, negative charge) is critical.

DM: Let’s just say an electron surplus. GP: Electron surplus, good. We’re negatively charged. We’re not neutral; I think we’re

negatively charged.

DM: One of the interesting points about plants, because that’s so integral to health, too… Any person who has a home with a landscape and waters their lawn in the summer knows it certainly helps as opposed to not getting water, especially if it’s not raining. But when it rains, the benefit to the landscape improves much more dramatically than simple water. I’m wondering if this EZ water could be part of the explanation.

GP: Positively. You think about the rain that comes down. We all think, well, the rain is H2O because everything is H2O. I think that’s not the case. I think that if you think about the clouds,

what’s inside the clouds? Start from there. If you think about it, why does water condense into clouds? That’s been kind of a mystery. We found that the water that evaporates definitely evaporates – it’s in the book also, by the way… It doesn’t evaporate one molecule at a time. It evaporates in clusters that are maybe a gazillion times the size of a water molecule – hugely larger.

That’s why, for example, if you go to Starbucks and have some hot coffee and look at the vapor just above your coffee, you can see the vapor. The reason you can see the vapor is that vapor constitutes of a lot of little droplets, but the droplets are not so little. In order to see these droplets – and you see it as you see those clouds – they have to be in the order of at least one micrometer. Actually, they’re more like 10 micrometers, five to 10. Five to 10 micrometers mean multiple billions and billions of water molecules clustered together to form one little droplet.

Now, this is what rises into the atmosphere. The moisture in the atmosphere consists of these tiny little droplets we call aerosol droplets. These droplets – any droplet – contain EZ water as a shell. The EZ water is charged. Then the question is: how do these droplets get together to form a cloud? Droplets have charge. They’re negatively charged. We learned in physics, all of us, that if we have little droplets over items of the same charge, they should repel each other. There’s no way that these are going to get together as clouds. But they do obviously. Something is the matter.

The reason they get together – again, this is laid out in the book – is that in between these negatively charged droplets are positive charges. They glue them together. As Feynmen said, it is an inevitable way. Like likes like. It means two like-charged entities like each other, so they get together. The reason he said that like likes like is intermediate unlikes. This is a central principle in nature. It’s what brings the moisture into clouds.

Now, what happens when the clouds deliver their rain? Remember, these are charged particles, so to speak, and come down. They contain EZ shells. The EZs are charged. What actually comes down into the soil is indeed EZ water. That’s why I know that farmers claim that rainfall is dramatically better than ordinary water for their crops.

Just one final point on this: we all think that rain falls from the sky. Droplets somehow (we don’t know how) come out of the cloud and just descends just as a falling body would descend. It’s not true. A paper in Nature, seven or eight years ago, actually measured the descent velocity of raindrops using high-speed photography. They found that these droplets came to the earth up to 10 times faster…

DM: Wow.

GP: Than you would predict by simply falling out of the sky. In other words, something was attracting it. Something was attracting those droplets to the earth. Therefore, they came faster than what would be expected.

I think charge is central to all of that. These drops are charged or charged with EZ water. Anything that’s charged will induce an equal and opposite charge on whatever is nearby. That will be the earth. I think the raindrops containing EZ that are therefore good for the health of plants and vegetables are actually getting pulled toward the earth. That’s why they fall as they do.

DM: But why would that be if the earth’s electronegative and the EZ water is negative? GP: It doesn’t matter if the earth is negative. Overall, it’s negative, but within that negativity, it’s

possible to induce regions of positivity. DM: Okay.

GP: People who deal with weather would know that this is the case. For example, with rain clouds or thunderclouds, they will have a region of the rain clouds that’s highly negatively charged. It induces positive charge on the earth. Local regions could be exceptions to that rule.

DM: Okay, that helps explain it. I’m sure [it’s] part of the mystery of why hurricanes and tornadoes exist, too. I’m sure it’s all part of the process. There are a large number of scientists seeking to understand it at a very deep level, so they can make accurate predictions and protect people from getting killed unnecessarily from the weather.

I’m wondering with all your useful studies, if you can perhaps compile some top recommendations you have that people can use on a regular basis to increase their access to EZ water.

GP: Yeah, well, it’s a complicated question. It’s not a very simple one. Okay, so, I was suggesting glacial melt, and that’s not very accessible to many people.

DM: Right, most people.

GP: I was suggesting some of the healing water. I’m also suggesting water from deep sources.

DM: Like?

GP: For example, spring water, it comes from deep sources. The reason that contains EZ water is that it’s under pressure.

DM: Oh, that’s the reason. GP: Those are sort of the most natural ways. Another way (you’ve got me thinking now) is…

DM: So pressurizing the water will actually make it more negative and will create more EZ water?

GP: Yeah.

DM: That is fascinating.

GP: I think it’s true. I think it’s true in general. If you can get hold of some of those deep sources, that may actually be good for your health. Those are a few. Now, adding negative charge can possibly do it. Some people put alkaline water in which this is actually done.

A colleague told me just yesterday, a colleague who deals with kidneys, kidney pathology, that some Taiwanese groups took the water of patients who undergo dialysis and added negative

[----- 1:00:00 -----]

charge to the diet during dialysis outside the body. Apparently, their results are phenomenal in terms of patients’ improvement in health. I haven’t read those papers. I just heard. You can, in some way, attract negative charge to the water and that should build EZ water.

The more interesting way is… Various people have approached me with different waters, different kinds of waters, to which they’ve applied energy. They left me a couple of dozens on the table. These are mostly sincere people who want to do something for humanity. They’re many. They’re unknown to most people. They come to me because they know of my deep interest in water and in health.

DM: Sure.

GP: They want me to know about it. They even asked me to test it. I’ve been reluctant to do that because I don’t want to take one particular type of water and wave the flag for that water. I don’t know really whether it’s the best one or not the best one.

DM: Sure.

GP: Some of the claims are amazing. I mean, it claims literally from reversing pathologies. It’s almost unbelievable that that could be the case, but it’s possible. There are many of these. They face real obstacles. One obstacle, for example, is the FDA, which doesn’t really consider water to be a popular pharmaceutical and etc. I think most of us know about that.

I have a plan. My plan is that since we have a laboratory, laboratory facilities, and we have clinical collaborators, I would like to take these waters, maybe a dozen of them or so, and actually test them objectively against one another and see what they do for health. I think we have a good chance because it’s known that we know reasonable objective measurements of water. I like to find out whether it’s true that this water objectively can really have serious impact on health.

But I think if we can demonstrate this in experiments, done objectively double-blind experiments just the way most scientific investigative we do these experiments… But most of their results are far anecdotal. There are some results in the literature. If we can do this in a double-blind way and if we find that some of these waters are really curative, I think we can make a huge impact. We tried getting funds from NIH to do this. So far, we’ve been unsuccessful. It’s not exactly mainstream science.

DM: No. Well, I think you’re on the right path. I really am deeply appreciative and grateful for all the pioneering work you’re doing in validating what I believe is probably one of the most exciting potentials in healing that we have known to humankind. It’s just unappreciated. People just don’t get it.

But you are leading the way. You’re developing the science. You’re providing the groundwork, the framework, the scientific understanding, that can explain some of these phenomena and then can validate what is particularly and typically perceived as a weirdo approach. But there’s actually strong science behind it. I’m so deeply appreciative for your work. I can’t tell you how much I’m grateful for that and for writing this book – not The Fourth Dimension, but the The Fourth Phase of Water: Beyond Solid, Liquid, and Vapor.

[Inaudible 1:04:36]

GP: Right, The Fourth Phase of Water: Beyond Solid, Liquid, and Vapor.

DM: The Fourth Phase of Water: Beyond Solid, Liquid, and Vapor. It’s a phenomenal book. It really goes into far more detail. The graphics are great. Your son did an awesome job; thank him for me for that. If anyone’s interested in this, as I believe they should be, I strongly recommend picking up a copy of the book, because it will really help go into further details.

As far as I conclude in your somewhat elusive answer to my previous question, we just don’t know at this point. The science is still new. I think, just to conclude it, it’s just… This is it. I mean, it is water. A good portion of your passion and desire for health should be spent on exploring the way to optimize your water intake. The more you can do at that, the better.

Just one comment on this before we close: a lot of people think that alkaline water is phenomenally beneficial water. It may be. I’m not convinced that’s the case, though, at least the typical alkaline water that’s produced or ionizes because of these electrical plates. I’m just not convinced that that’s the ideal way to do that. I wouldn’t encourage that. I think that might be a dead end. A lot of people will throw rocks at me for saying that, but I’m not convinced of it.

But I think that these other strategies… Some of the strategies that people are coming to you within clearly the vortex water – injecting physical energy or light energy – no question. There’s no way you can go wrong with that. I mean, that seems to me one of the ultimate healing waters, especially if you optimize the vortexing and combine it with some synergistic components.

But the research needs to be done clearly. I think we can combine it with some biological parameters like plant growth and sprouts, seeing how they’ll grow and measure their physical characteristics. You can use the plants to tell you of the effectiveness of that specific water.

GP: Absolutely. I’m with you 100 percent. I have the same passion. DM: This is literally one of our primary passions now, water.

This is literally one of our primary passions now – we’re working on this vortexing water project. I don’t know. If you get a lot of people who probably have some incredibly valid concepts, I would love to have access to them, if you’re willing to share that. I don’t know if there’s confidentiality against it, but we’ll be glad to work with them. We might be able to take it, because we have a little R&D center that we’re developing in our office. I really, really want to make the best vortex water in the world. Let me tell you how we’re thinking about doing that.

GP: Yeah.

DM: Some of it’s based on your work. It’s not only vortexing; that’s easy with magnets. But then reversing the vortex every few seconds, because it’s creating more energy. I just want to read Schauberger’s. I have to get behind his mind, what he understood, see if I can translate it to contemporary stuff, and then also integrate the light, the infrared light into the water with the reversing vortexes.

[----- 1:10:00 -----]

GP: I think that could be, you know. I think it needs to be tried. The question is: what will be the end point? How will you know if it’s good or not good? I mean, do you plan to do a clinical study?

DM: Yes, we do. Our clinical studies take one week. GP: How do you do it? DM: It’s a biological system. It’s called sprouts. GP: Oh, yes, sprouts, sure.

DM: We soak the seeds in that water, and we water them. We have a very specific amount of seeds that we measure out to a tenth of a gram. And then we measure pre-imposed. We do not only the measurement of the weight of the harvest, but also the brix meeting, which is the amount of sugar plants are producing, and some other measurements. We use the plants to tell us the vitality of that water.

GP: Yeah. Actually, I have a few experiments going on like that, too, but they’re done by the graduates. They’re really not in a particularly high level. But I think that’s a good way. I think… I’m not sure how many people will actually believe the results of those experiments unless someone does clinical trials.

DM: Yeah.

GP: At least test it on mice or cats.

DM: Well, we don’t have to make any claims because you’re right: the FDA will come down on us like lead bricks. No question. But we know we can clearly show what it does to the plants, and people can make their own conclusions.

GP: Yeah, that’s it. That’s a good idea. DM: Yeah.

GP: But I have an idea beyond that that I think you can comment on. I think you and I share the view that the FDA is limiting so much.

DM: Oh, gosh, yeah, absolutely.

GP: They’re a real obstacle for humanity. I have an idea: suppose a different organization were created in parallel with the FDA, not claiming health benefits, but trying something like that. In other words, suppose some independent organization that’s not paid for by any pharmacist, not supported by any pharmaceutical company or any of the chemical company – Monsanto and such – began to do some testing and began to be kind of an independent “certifying” organization that people could look to for approval or non-approval, without any claims of health benefits.

People would know that we look to this group and they tested things objectively. Maybe you, actually, kind of represent that, I guess. But I mean, if we want to spread the idea of water more

widely, it’s never going to happen the way the current setup exists because there are people who are… I don’t know if you’re recording or not.

DM: I’m recording you, but this is all private. This is only for internal use. This is not going out. I can promise you.

GP: Yeah. I mean, these are paid for by the pharmaceutical companies. DM: Right.

GP: Drugs and such. There’s no way to beat them really, really, easily. I’m a lab scientist, but I’ve become educated in the ways of the world amazingly.

DM: Sure.

GP: I understand that this could be a giant obstacle for anybody – for you especially – who wants to achieve something for humanity, something that instead of killing people like chemotherapy…

DM: Well, but there’s this legal principle called res ipsa loquitur we’re taught in medical school, that’s basically “the facts speak for themselves.” When people apply this water of some simple principles and their disease starts to reverse just like with this 15-watt laser… I mean, people having pain for 10 to 15 years just disappears in minutes. I mean, the results speak for themselves and then that word of mouth spreads.

You don’t need to have this approval by the FDA. I mean, you have to be really careful with what you say, of course, and you have to follow the guidelines. You don’t want to get thrown in jail. But you know, it’s just a matter of letting people know and letting them try it. But you have to create it and make it available. I think a lot of these people… I would say a good percentage, a healthy percentage, of the people who are coming to you have some pretty darn, phenomenal ideas, and I’d love to know what those are.

GP: I’d be happy to. I’m happy to share with you. I guess, I can let you know. See, people are constantly asking me your contact.

DM: Oh, I know, yeah. You’re a lightning rod.

GP: What?

DM: You’re a lightning rod for those.

GP: Yeah, a lightning rod. Absolutely, I’ve become light-receptive. Actually, it sorts of drives me crazy. I have no time at all. My doctor has to make an appointment to talk to me.

DM: I’d love to work collaboratively with you. I think we could do a lot for this. I’m absolutely on board. I’ve been studying health not quite as long as you’ve been studying water, but you know, for over 30 years, it’s my absolute passion. My goal is to share this information with people. There’s nothing that I’ve studied that I think has more potential than the optimal water. I’m totally on board. This is a big succession of our focus: it’s going to be on water. I mean, in the future. There’s just no question. We’re there.

GP: Okay, well, I’m delighted. Step one is simply for me to connect you with some of these people.

DM: Okay. GP: If you know any wealthy people who would like to donate five million or something like

that, we’d like to do some objective studies here.

DM: Yeah. We have a limited budget. We do funding. We funded things in California. Naturally, your state’s going to benefit from it in November for being the first state that has genetically engineered food labeled. It will pass in November. That’s almost a guarantee –100 percent. You will be the first state in the U.S. We actually catalyzed that.

But that takes funding, you know. We put a few million dollars into that or more actually. But we’ve got these things. I think they’re really crucial. But as surplus funds come up, we could talk about collaborating with some of that support.

GP: Yeah. I wasn’t really hinting at your generosity. But you know, you’re probably in contact with some truly wealthy people who would be delighted to fund a study that has impact on the health of humanity.

DM: Yeah. GP: They might fund you also, but you’re also a commercial entity. DM: Yes, that’s right.

GP: We’re totally a university – not connected with any commercial entity. I think maybe with the book, and as people get to know of the book (thanks for the plug, by the way), things will begin happening. But if we could begin studies and we get to do that in a collaboration, that would be okay, too.

DM: That sounds good.

GP: We really like to initiate studies right away.

DM: Okay. I’ll discuss it with Steve. I think we’re on the same wave length, so that’s good. How do I connect with the person on your staff that has those people with the ideas on the different strategies on water?

GP: Well, you can best connect with me.

DM: Okay.

GP: Because there’s a post-doc who’s not funded, so she’s only working a little bit. But I can send you her email. She’s not in town right now. I have an undergraduate student. We have a decent budget for our studies, but they’re mostly involved with physical chemical studies of water. We don’t have any budget at all for this.

DM: Yeah.

GP: That’s right. I was actually thinking even of doing crowd fundings to try to get a decent funding.

DM: We’ve already budgeted a quarter million for this research that we’re doing internally. We’re definitely doing it with the biophysics stuff, the vortexing machine, the patent needed, and things like that. There’s no doubt, I think… My guess right now is that an ideal vortexer could be one of the simplest ways to improve people’s health, because you can recreate glacial water and spring water.

GP: Sorry, what? DM: You can recreate glacial water or spring water in your own home. GP: Yeah, absolutely. DM: Inexpensively, relatively inexpensively. GP: Joe, I can connect you with a Swedish guy who’s been dealing with vortexing. DM: Oh, definitely. I would love it. I would love it. GP: Do you want to know his name? DM: Oh, yes, anyone who has any information about vortexing, I’d love.

GP: There was a company. He used to be with a company. He’s a smart guy. He’s not with the company anymore. He knows about vortexing. Let me write down a note here. Okay. I’ll send you by email his contact information. He’d be useful.

There’s another guy who makes a device, I must admit. I hate to admit it probably, but we have it on our water system. It’s a vortexer. It’s a copper pipe inside. When you put your copper pipe in your own, it stirs with your own input water systems. It’s got a kind of spiral inside. The water goes to the spiral. It comes down vortex. We use this for our drinking water and shower water. I’m not sure if it makes a difference, but I’m pretty healthy.

DM: Yeah, well, the key here is letting the plants tell us, because they’re going to give us the first clue. And the generation to do that is one week. I mean, you cannot… I guess, you can do that with fruit flies about as quickly, but not much.

GP: Yeah. We do the same with sprouts. DM: Yeah. GP: It’s a great way to do it. As I said, we do the same with sprouts. It’s a great way to do it. DM: Simple and inexpensive. You go to leverage things when you have limited resources.

GP: Yeah, I know. Well, your resources are less limited than our resources. Actually, my wife buys your stuff.

DM: Oh, great, perfect. Well, I’d gladly give you a partner discount for that. There’s no problem. Just let me know. I’ll take care of that. Actually, send me your wife’s email. We’ll make sure that happens, okay?

GP: Okay. I wasn’t asking.

DM: No, that’s fine. We’re happy to do that. But also, send me the guy, the vortexing, and any other like your graduate student information. If she’s going to coordinate this, that would be great.

GP: Okay, yeah, she’s actually post-doc from the . DM: Okay, post-doc, I’m sorry. GP: Yeah. I can give you her contact information. DM: Perfect.

GP: But I think she doesn’t really… I mean, you may be disappointed because she doesn’t really have a deep feel yet for this stuff.

DM: I thought she was going to connect me with all those people that are coming to you with all their crazy ideas.

GP: Yeah, but I can also.

DM: Okay, well, then you can do it. You just do it. I don’t need her then. I want to connect to those crazies, because I know there are some gold nuggets in what they’re thinking that really have some phenomenal potential. We can test it. We can screen it real easily.

GP: Okay, I will do that. I’ll give you the names. In the next couple of days, I’ll give you contact information.

DM: Perfect.

GP: And some notes.

DM: Okay, all right. We’ll give you a copy of this interview, of course, and you can edit it just like before. It’ll probably be on in the next few months. This is great. I’m just so happy for the collaboration. You’re really one of our heroes.

GP: Thank yo

The Fourth Phase of Water – What You Don’t Know About Water, and Really Should



August 18, 2013 | 250,182 views





WATCH THE INTERVIEW ON YOU-TUBE



http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bvDoOlX9Fn0







By Dr. Mercola



Water is clearly one of the most important factors for your health—especially when you consider that your body actually consists of over 99 percent water molecules! I sincerely believe water is a really underappreciated part of the equation of optimal health.



I’ve previously interviewed Dr. Gerald Pollack, who is one of the leading premier research scientists in the world when it comes to understanding the physics of water, and what it means to your health.



Besides being a professor of bioengineering at the University of Washington, he’s also the founder and editor-in-chief of a scientific journal called Water, and has published many peer-reviewed scientific papers on this topic. He’s even received prestigious awards from the National Institutes of Health.



His book, The Fourth Phase of Water: Beyond Solid, Liquid, and Vapor, is a phenomenal read that is easy to understand even for the non-professional.



It clearly explains the theory of the fourth phase of water, which is nothing short of ground-breaking. The fourth phase of water is, in a nutshell, living water. It’s referred to as EZ water—EZ standing for “exclusion zone”—which has a negative charge. This water can hold energy, much like a battery, and can deliver energy too.



For years, Dr. Pollack had researched muscles and how they contract, and it struck him as odd that the most common ideas about muscle contraction do not involve water, despite the fact that muscle tissue consists of 99 percent water molecules.



How could it be that 99 percent of the molecules were ignored? How could it be that muscle contracts without involving the water in some way? These questions help catalyze his passionate investigation into water.





So You Think You Understand Water?



Gilbert Ling, who was a pioneer in this field, discovered that water in human cells is not ordinary water (H2O), but something far more structured and organized.



“I began to think about water in the context of biology: if water inside the cell was ordered and structured and not bulk water or ordinary water as most biochemists and cell biologists think, then it is really important,” Dr. Pollack says.



Dr. Pollack’s book also touches on some of the most basic features of water, many of which are really not understood. For example, how does evaporation take place? Why does a tea kettle whistle? Also, despite the fact that conventional science tells us freezing is supposed to occur at zero degrees Celsius, experiments show that it can freeze in many different temperatures down to minus 50 degrees Celsius.

There’s actually no one single freezing point for water! Other experiments show that the boiling point of 100 degrees Celsius (or 212 degrees Fahrenheit) does not always hold true either.



 “There’s a famous website1 put together by a British scientist, Martin Chaplin. Martin lists numerous anomalies associated with water,” Dr. Pollack says. “In other words, things that shouldn’t be according to what we know about water…

The more anomalies we have, the more we begin to think that maybe there’s something fundamental about water that we really don’t know. That’s the core of what I’m trying to do. In our laboratory at the University of Washington, we’ve done many experiments over the last decade. These experiments have clearly shown the existence of this additional phase of water.”



The reason this fourth phase of water is called the exclusion zone or EZ is because the first thing Dr. Pollack’s team discovered is that it profoundly excludes things. Even small molecules are excluded from EZ water. Surprisingly, EZ water appears in great abundance, including inside most of your cells. Even your extracellular tissues are filled with this kind of water.







The Water in Your Cells Give Them Their Negative Charge



Other inherent differences between regular water and EZ water include its structure. Typical tap water is H2O but this fourth phase is not H2O; it’s actually H3O2. It’s also more viscous, more ordered, and more alkaline than regular water, and its optical properties are different. The refractive index of EZ water is about 10 percent higher than ordinary water. Its density is also about 10 percent higher, and it has a negative charge (negative electrical potential). This may provide the answer as to why human cells are negatively charged. Dr. Pollack explains:



“Everybody knows that the cell is negatively charged. If you insert an electrode into any of your cells, you’ll measure a negative electrical potential. The textbook says that the reason for this negative electrical potential has something to do with the membrane and the ion channels in the membrane.



Oddly, if you look at a gel that has no membrane, you record much the same potential – 100 millivolts or 150 millivolts negative. The interior of the cell is much like a gel. It’s kind of surprising that something without a membrane yields the same electrical potential as the cell with a membrane.



That raises the question: where does this negativity come from? Well, I think the negativity comes from the water, because the EZ water inside the cell has a negative charge. The same is true of the gel—the EZ water in the gel confers negativity. I think the cells are negatively charged because the water inside the cell is mainly EZ water and not neutral H2O.”





What Creates or Builds EZ Water?



One of the greatest surprises is that the key ingredient to create EZ water is light, i.e. electromagnetic energy, whether in the form of visible light, ultraviolet (UV) wavelengths and infrared wavelengths, which we’re surrounded by all the time. Infrared is the most powerful, particularly at wavelengths of approximately three micrometers, which is all around you. The EZ water can build on any hydrophilic or water-loving surface when infrared energy is available.



It builds by adding layer upon layer of EZ water, and can build millions of molecular layers. This is how it occurs in nature. For example, ice doesn’t form directly from ordinary H2O. It goes from regular water to EZ water to ice. And when you melt it, it goes from ice to EZ water to regular water. So EZ water is an intermediate state.



“Glacial melt is a perfect way to get EZ water. And a lot of people have known that this water is really good for your health,” Dr. Pollack says.



Testing water samples using a UV-visible spectrometer, which measures light absorption at different wavelengths, Dr. Pollack has discovered that in the UV region of 270 nanometers, just shy of the visible range, the EZ actually absorbs light. The more of the 270 nanometer light the water absorbs, the more EZ water the sample contains. EZ water appears to be quite stable. This means it can hold the structure, even if you leave it sitting around for some time. Water samples from the river Ganges and from the Lourdes in France have been measured, showing spikes in the 270 nanometer region, suggesting these “holy waters” contain high amounts of EZ water. According to Dr. Pollack, there’s compelling evidence that EZ water is indeed lifesaving…





EZ Cellular Water Helps Explain Health Benefits of Light and Heat Therapies



Heating equates to applying infrared energy, and Dr. Pollack has found that if you apply infrared, the EZ water builds and doesn’t diminish. The implications of this are profound when you consider the health benefits of sitting in an infrared sauna, for example. Essentially, one of the reasons why infrared saunas make you feel so good is because your body’s cells are deeply penetrated by infrared energy, which builds and stores EZ water. The same goes for light therapy, spending time in the sun, and laser therapy.



“There are various kinds of light therapy using different wavelengths. We found that all wavelengths – some in particular – of light, even weak light, build EZ. If EZ is critical for the health of your cells, which I think is clear, these therapies have a distinct physical chemical basis,” Dr. Pollack explains.



EZ water also provides a mechanism that explains other biological mysteries. For example, Dr. Pollack describes another fascinating finding that further bolsters our understanding of the mechanism of action behind the health benefits of something as simple as exposing your body to the light and heat of the sun:



“We found that if we put a simple tube, like a straw, made of hydrophilic material, in water… there’s water flow through the tube at high speed. This happens spontaneously. But it shouldn’t happen spontaneously. The common idea is that if you want to drive fluid through a pipe or tube, you need to apply pressure. But we have no pressure here. There’s no pressure difference between the input and output. But flow builds up spontaneously, and it keeps going.



Recently, we found that if we add light, the flow goes faster. It means that light has a particular effect; especially ultraviolet light, but other wavelengths as well. It speeds up the flow. We think that somehow the exclusion zones (EZs) are involved because inside those tubes, there’s a little annular ring of exclusion zone, and inside that is an area full of protons… It seems that the exclusion zone and the pressure of these protons are driving the flow.”



Now, let’s apply these mechanisms to your body. Your capillaries receive radiant energy from outside all the time. Energy is also received from the inside of your body, as metabolic reactions continuously generate heat or infrared. So the question is, is it possible that the flow of blood occurring through your capillaries is automatically enhanced by exposure to light? It appears the answer may be yes…



“This is an important issue because the capillaries are puzzling,” Dr. Pollack says. “They’re so small. Some of the capillaries are smaller in diameter than the red blood cells that pass through them. Any competent engineer would never build a pipe that’s smaller than the junk that’s supposed to go through. But nature, apparently, has done that…



Now, that means there’s a lot of resistance. You need something to push those red blood cells through… One possibility is that the flow in your capillaries is aided by this kind of radiant energy… We’re starting to test this… It’s possible that your cardiovascular system is assisted by radiant energy in the same way that the flow in the tubes is assisted by radiant energy.”



One of the more interesting healing modalities I’ve been exploring lately is the use of a high-powered laser. The K-Laser also has frequencies in the infrared range, which can deeply penetrate tissue. This kind of laser therapy has shown to provide profound healing for many painful injuries in a very short amount of time—sometimes just minutes of treatment. While the benefits of laser therapy are thought to be due to its action on mitochondrial activity, it may very well be that the benefits are also related to “recharging” your damaged cells’ EZ water, as well as promoting increased capillary blood flow.



EZ water in your body also plays a role is in hyperbaric medicine, which is also good for injuries. In that case, your tissues are exposed to high oxygen under pressure.



“The results are in. We think we understand the mechanism as to why hyperbaric oxygen is so effective for wound healing… EZ water has a higher density than bulk water. If you take H2O and you put it under pressure, it should give you H3O2 because the EZ structure is denser than the H2O. We did the experiments and we found, indeed, that’s the case. If you put H2O under pressure, you get more EZ water.”



The same goes for oxygen. EZ also has more oxygen than H2O, and when you increase oxygen content, you get more EZ water. So, hyperbaric treatment builds EZ water in your body, particularly in injured areas where EZ water is needed.





Alkalinity and Your Body’s Negative Charge May Be Critical for Health



I personally drink vortexed water nearly exclusively as I became a big fan of Viktor Schauberger who did much pioneering work on vortexing about a century ago. Dr. Pollack found that by creating a vortex in a glass of water, you’re putting more energy into it, thereby increasing EZ. According to Dr. Pollack, virtually ANY energy put into the water seems to create or build EZ water.



“We have looked at acoustic energy that seems to effect some change in the water. We’re still not sure exactly what. Vortexed water puts enormous energy into the water. There are several groups in Europe studying this phenomenon right now. “



As mentioned earlier, EZ water is alkaline and carries a negative charge. Maintaining this state of alkalinity and negative charge appears to be important for optimal health. Drinking water can be optimized in a variety of different ways, by injecting light energy or physical energy into the water by vortexing, for example. This is fairly easy using magnets. Reversing the vortex every few seconds may even create more energy.



Clearly, more research needs to be done in this area, but some is already underway. My own R&D team is working on a careful study in which we use vortexed water to grow sprouts, to evaluate the vitality and effectiveness of the water.



 As for a natural source of EZ water for drinking, an ideal source is glacial melt. Unfortunately, this is extremely inaccessible for most people. Another good source is water from deep sources, such as deep spring water. The deeper the better, as EZ water is created under pressure. Natural spring water is another excellent way to obtain this type of water and you can use FindaSpring.com2  to help you find one close to you.



Besides optimizing the water you drink, you can help generate an electron surplus, or support this negative charge within your body, simply by connecting to the Earth, which also has a negative charge. This is the basis of the earthing or grounding technique, which has been shown to have significant health benefits by allowing the transfer of negatively charged electrons from the ground into the soles of your feet. In a sense, it’s as though your cells are built like batteries that are naturally recharged by spending time outdoors—whether sunny or overcast, and walking barefoot, connecting to the negative charge of the earth!



“If you have an organ that’s not functioning well—for example, it’s lacking that negative charge—then the negative charge from the earth and… [drinking] EZ water can help restore that negativity. I’ve become convinced… that this negative charge is critical for healthy function,” Dr. Pollack says.







The Fourth Phase of Water: Beyond Solid, Liquid, and Vapor



(An Interview with Dr. Gerald Pollack)





DM: Dr. Joseph Mercola GP: Dr. Gerald Pollack



Introduction:



By Dr. Joseph Mercola



DM: Welcome, everyone. This is Dr. Mercola. Today we are honored to have Dr. Gerald Pollack, who is clearly one of the leading premier research scientists in the world when it comes to understanding the physics of water – so much so that, in fact, he even founded and is the editor-in-chief of a whole scientific journal on that called Water. He has published a large number of peer-reviewed scientific journals and publications and has also received even prestigious awards from the National Institutes of Health. He is a well-respected researcher.



We are just delighted to have him today. So, welcome and thank you for joining us today, Dr. Pollack.



GP: Well, thank you, Dr. Mercola. It’s great to be here. I’m delighted to do so. Yeah, thank you. The book on this subject has just emerged. I’m so excited to have an opportunity to talk about it somewhat. I’ll be happy to answer any questions that you may have on the subject. Or would you like me to just begin?



DM: Well, let me first mention that we have interviewed you before. There’s a previous interview we had that was really widely received. Many people appreciated that. So, maybe you can update us from that. But before that, for those who haven’t seen that previous video, if you could help us understand how you acquired your expertise and how you became passionate about this subject. It will sort of frame the whole process for people.



GP: Right. I actually became passionate about water after meeting a pioneer in the field. His name is Gilbert Ling. Gilbert came from China in the late 1940s. He’s now about 95 years old. I met him. I knew that he had some ideas about water in the cell, that the water in the cell was not just ordinary bulk water. Actually, the water was structured and organized in some way.



I became intrigued – this was about 25 years ago – by what he had to say on the subject. I began reading his books. By now, he has five books on the subject. I gave them also to my students and my post-docs. I found that every one of them thought that Ling was either right or almost right. I began to think about water in the context of biology: if water inside the cell was ordered and structured and not bulk water or ordinary water as most biochemists and cell biologists think, then it is really important.



That’s what began the passionate approach to water. I think Ling is right, and there’s so much more to be said about water.



DM: And your formal academic training, if you could just review that. Are you a full professor at the University of Washington?



GP: Right, yeah, in the department of bioengineering for 30 years approximately in Seattle. My original training, my Ph.D. at the University of Washington was in the field of biomedical engineering. But I began studying muscles. I spent many years deeply involved, deeply engaged with an understanding of the function at the molecular level of muscles. How do muscles actually contract?



There was a theory that has been around for quite a while. It was put forward by the late and distinguished Nobel laureate, Sir Andrew Huxley. I had some questions about that particular theory. I was influenced a lot by a colleague of mine who told me that not only was his theory wrong, but it was impossible. I began in my career thinking about those issues and thinking about alternative mechanisms.



One of the things that struck me was when you look at the textbook and look just to see how the textbook reports that muscle contracts at the molecular level, there’s one thing that’s deleted – that’s water. There’s no water that’s included. If you look at the diagrams of muscles, you can see proteins, protein filaments, that anybody who studied knows well about. But there’s no water.



It struck me that since muscle is two-thirds water… Actually, that two-thirds translates if you… Because molecules are so small, it translates to 99 percent of all the molecules in the muscle. In fact, all the molecules in your body, 99 percent of them are water. How could it be that 99 percent of the molecules were ignored? How could it be that muscle contracts without involving the water in some way? That was kind of a trigger for my passion.



DM: Yeah. When I lecture, I frequently explain to people… Because most of the people I lecture to are passionate about health, and they’re all really applying a lot of the basics. But I’m saying, “If you have a relative or a friend who’s starting to put their toe in the water and starting to get interested in health, the best and most important thing you can do is to get them to drink clean, pure water and stop drinking soda. The average person is drinking 56 gallons of soda a year – diet and regular soda.



As you just mentioned, water is such an integral part of our body. I think it’s really a hidden part of the equation. I mean, not hidden, but it’s an unappreciated part. That’s why I’m so delighted to have you. In fact, I neglected to mention in your introduction that you have written a new book on this subject which is Water: The Fourth Dimension, a phenomenal book and easy to understand.



This could be a really complex topic with very complicated physics, which you understand better than anyone. But I just so appreciate the way you put that book together. It’s written in a way where the average person who didn’t really even finish high school could understand it – tremendous diagrams, easy language, and phenomenal communication skills. So, congratulations. I highly recommend that book.



GP: Oh, thank you so much. Actually, the title is almost correct. It’s called The Fourth Phase of Water.



DM: Okay, The Fourth Phase of Water. Okay, I’m sorry.



GP: No, it’s definitely okay. The Fourth Phase of Water: Beyond Solid, Liquid, and Vapor. I thank you for the comments. The diagrams and pictures, they were sort of , which helps the understanding on… I’m really proud that my son, who is an artist, had volunteered to do those drawings. Many people have commented that the drawings are so helpful in portraying what I was trying to say.



Yeah, the book, well, it’s about physics and chemistry. I tried to present it in a way that is understandable. Because I have, like my passion for water, a passion for clarity. I think it’s important to bring these messages through in a clear and distinct way that everybody doesn’t need to be an expert in any particular field to get the message.



There’s been so much about water that has not been clear at all. I began scratching my head and thinking about it, as I imagine, from the time that I met Gilbert Ling and was persuaded by his writings and his persona that there is something really central about water.



I totally agree with you that the kinds of soda, the sugary drinks that people enjoy, that’s not the best route toward health. There are many kinds of water that are better. I think we can talk about those later if you like.



But the book itself, I was so excited to put this together. I’m so excited to receive the wonderful comments and the feedbacks that I’ve gotten. The book touches on the most basic features of water, a lot of which are really not understood. For example, how does evaporation take place? Why does a tea kettle whistle?



What about freezing? Freezing is supposed to occur at zero degrees Celsius. But in fact, experiment shows that it can freeze in many different temperatures down to minus 50 degrees Celsius. There’s no one single freezing point. Other experiments show that even boiling point of 100 degrees Celsius (or 212 degrees Fahrenheit) is not always true.



Even the most fundamental ideas about water that we’ve all held along with the physics and chemistry of water are really not so clear. The book makes an attempt to clarify those issues in a way that’s understandable to non-experts.



DM: Can you highlight some of the concepts that the book seeks to explain and maybe some of the insights and things you’ve been working on since the last time we talked?



GP: Okay. The fundamental issue is at the central core issue of the book. That’s why it’s called the Fourth Phase of Water, because there is a fourth phase of water. We call this the exclusion zone or EZ. We call it exclusion zone because the first thing we found out about it is that it excludes things profoundly. Even the small molecules are excluded from it. So, we adopted the name exclusion zone. But we found out so much more about the exclusion zone.



[inaudible 06:48]



[----- 10:00 -----]



We found out that it’s a structure that’s different from ordinary water. We all know that water is H2O, but this fourth phase is not H2O. According to the structure that we think is the real structure, it’s actually H3O2, not H2O.



DM: Oh, interesting.



GP: It’s a kind of structure. The surprise is that it appears in great abundance. As I mentioned, it’s in the inside of your cell. The evidence that we have is that it fills most of your cells. Even the extracellular tissue is filled with this kind of water. An interesting insight is, you know, everybody knows that the cell is negatively charged. If you fit an electrode into any of your cells, you’ll make a negative electron potential.



The textbook says that the reason for this negative electrical potential has something to do with the membrane and the ion channels in the membrane. Oddly, if you look at a gel that has no membrane, you record exactly the same potential – 100 milligauss or 160 milligauss negative. It’s kind of surprising that something without a membrane with the same electrical potential in the inside are much the same as the cell. From a physical chemical point of view, it has the same electrical potential as that of the cell.



That raises the question: where does this negativity come from? Well, I think the negativity comes from the water, because we found that this kind of EZ water has a negative charge. A negative charge is actually what gives it this structure H3O2. Because to balance the charge, we need twice as many hydrogens and oxygens as in H2O. But you don’t quite have that much, so this water tends to be negatively charged.



If you go back to the cell and ask yourself, well, you know, “Why does the cell have negative electrical charge?” I think the simplest direct answer is that it’s got lots of EZ water, which has a negative charge, and so is a gel. I think that’s the reason why our cells are negatively charged. In fact, if I may go on…



DM: Well, let me ask you one question, because it’s a really important concept that you brought up: the difference between the chemical structure that’s really noted throughout the world for many, many centuries as H2O is really… In fact, you’re finding this EZ water, which is more of biologically vital water, as H3O2. This is the EZ. Can you tell me how? The obvious question that probably everyone is thinking is why didn’t they understand that? How was this missed – something so obvious?



GP: That’s a good question. You have to look at the history of the research of water. At one time, around 50 years ago approximately, water was a very central feature of scientific research. In fact, the father of modern biochemistry, Dr. Albert Szent-Györgyi, a brilliant, totally brilliant, Nobel-est of Nobel-est, was so intrigued and knew that water was absolutely central to all in biology. In fact, one of his famous quotes is “Life is water dancing to the tune of molecules.” Water, they’re going to have them and actually many others, including Russians. It was very central to every technique.



Then came a guy, a Russian guy named Derjaguin. Derjaguin found some interesting stuff about water. This was in the 1960s. It was the time of the Cold War – I mean, the West and the East. As you know, there was lots of tension between the two. Derjaguin was the most famous



[inaudible 10:21]



physical chemist in all of Russia, Boris Derjaguin. Derjaguin was a legendary figure. Derjaguin became enthralled with this interesting finding. He had to do experiments and publish many papers on this.



What they found was that water was not the usual three phases of solid, liquid, and vapor. There was something odd, something different. What they did in their experiments was they put water in very thin capillary tubes, just simple tubes made of quartz. They looked at the properties. Every property that they measured was different from ordinary water. This was a really fascinating discovery. Derjaguin thought that this must be something like a new phase of water.



Finally, in the late 1960s – this was 10 years after the Russians published a lot of papers on it – it got to the West. It was translated. Most of the people in the West thought not much of Russian science, because of a lot of propaganda. In fact, Russian science was quite ahead of a lot of other science. The response from the West was either, well, you know, “We’re going to take this science and really do something with it,” or “We are going to demonstrate that the Russians are idiots.” A few people attempted to do the latter.



What one group found and reported is that this water… The reason that this water got these distinctive, unusual properties (which I think is very similar to what we’re finding) was that the water was not pure water, as the Russians had suggested. But actually the water had leached some silica from the glass, from the quartz of the tube. In fact, it wasn’t pure water; it was a silica gel. That’s the reason why this water had these unusual properties. It’s got to be a big joke on the Russians.



Some group found also that if you put salt to the water and you measure the Raman spectra, which is used frequently by physical chemists, in fact, this water has exactly the same properties as the Russians’. So, they said, “Well, the Russians must have been sweating into their water.” It was a big joke. This water came to be known as the so-called polywater, because it behaved as though the water was not simply a group of molecules, but a group of connective molecules like a polymer. It was a big joke on the Russians and still remains a joke.



That was one thing that began to dissuade people from studying water, even though it’s been a hot topic before that. They think that, “Well, if the greatest biochemist and physical chemist in all of Russia could screw up so badly, then what about the mortals like us?” There was a sense of staying away.



Then there was a bit of resurgence and then something else happened, which turned out to be even worse. It had to do with the so-called water memory. Some of your viewers may be familiar with that, because this is another debacle that took place in 1989, so not so long ago.



There was a French group. The French group found that if you took water and you diluted it, many, many times, the highly diluted water, as in homeopathy, have virtually the same properties as the original. You put a substance in water. You dilute it. [Count] one to 10, take that and dilute it. [Count] one to 10, shake it in between, take that, and dilute it. [Count] one to 10, etc. You can do a hundred dilutions and more and still the biological impact of that diluted material was always the same as the concentrated material prior to any kinds of dilution.



Of course, a lot of people were not happy with that. The story is that a group was sent to their laboratory, put together by the administrative staff of the general to check it



[inaudible 18:24]



out. They sent a magician, Randi the Magician. The group got together. After spending a few days and watching them do their experiments, some of which actually turned out to be positive. They concluded that – since when the group did the experiments, the visiting group couldn’t repeat the same result – it must be some kind of an artifact.



Anyway, there’s a lot to be told about that story. It’s in my book. There are some real surprises that come beyond that.



But the point, to answer your question, is that there were two serious debacles that took place: polywater and water memory. And they’re fresh in our memory.



Let me just go back to water memory. The idea is that because these solutions were so diluted, the water itself might hold memory of the molecules that had been there originally. That’s why they called it water memory.



Anyway, the problem was with the two debacles taking place, a lot of scientists were really reluctant to study water. That’s part of it. The other part is that everybody thinks, “Well, you know, water is the most common substance on the face of the Earth. It’s so simple. It’s H2O. It must have been researched exhaustively. Therefore, there’s really not much to be learned about water.” That’s the one side.



The other side is that anomalies keep piling up. There’s a famous website put together by a British scientist, Martin Chaplin. If you click on “Water,” it’s probably what you’ll get to first. Martin lists numerous anomalies associated with water.



In other words, things that shouldn’t be according to what we know about water. You can think of anomalies as well, you know. It just doesn’t fit. But the flip side is that these anomalies keep piling up. The more anomalies we have, the more we begin to think that maybe there’s something fundamental about water that we really don’t know. That’s the core of what I’m trying to do.



In our laboratory at the University of Washington, we’ve done many experiments over the last decade. These experiments have clearly shown the existence of this additional phase of water. I think this additional phase clears up a lot of those anomalies. I think they’re not anomalies anymore.



DM: Yeah, they aren’t.



GP: They are explained within the framework of this new vision of water.



DM: Thank you for providing us with that background. I’m still wondering, though, about the difference between regular water and the EZ water. Is that the H3O2 water? I mean, can you process water in a way such as the water that winds up in soda or that comes through most municipal taps afterwards – cleansed, chlorinated, and fluoridated typically – and driven through all these cylindrical pipes… Does that damage the structure in a way that it goes from regular EZ water to regular H2O?



[----- 20:00 -----]



GP: Yeah, I think what I need to do is go back a step before I answer your question and tell you how this water actually forms.



DM: Okay.



GP: I didn’t do that yet. The key ingredient is light. That’s a real surprise. By light, I mean, generically, electromagnetic energy. Light might contain the visible light, the visible wavelengths that we use to see, also ultraviolet (UV) wavelengths, and especially infrared wavelengths. Infrared is around us all the time.



DM: Are there any frequencies that are particularly more useful to generate EZ? Is it the infrared or the ultraviolet? Or do you need all of them?



GP: We don’t have this EZ, EZED, or whatever you would like to say of this EZ water. It’s still by light energy. We found that infrared is actually the most powerful, particularly at wavelengths of three micrometers approximately. That’s all around us. We found in experiments that if we take some surface – we’re talking about a hydrophilic or water-loving surface – it just



up against the water. You have infrared energy available, which is always available.



This doesn’t build automatically. It builds and builds and have layer upon layer of this kind of, we say, EZ water. It can build to millions of molecular layers. That’s what’s a bit different from what the physical chemists had thought previously. General physical chemistry presumes that next to this charge or hydrophilic molecules, which fill our cells and are all over, that we may have water, inert layers of water. What we found is that that’s not true: this kind of energy builds this kind of water and builds a lot of it all over the place in instances we don’t even really think about – for example, the surface of water, the water-air interphase.



So, your question gets back to how do we build this stuff or can we build it? The answers are not all in, but I think we can build it. First of all, it actually occurs in nature. The first point is if you take ice melt. One point that we found is that in order to create ice… Molecularly, ice doesn’t form directly from ordinary bulk water. You need to go from bulk water to EZ water to ice. When you melt it, you go from ice to EZ water to bulk water. The EZ water is an intermediate.



If you take, for example, glacial melt, glacial melt contains abundant EZ water. That’s one way to create it. Nature creates it. Nature is very straightforward in doing this all the time. That’s the reason why if you look at glacial melts… For example, I noticed in a recent trip to Innsbruck (but not only there), the water that comes from the Alps also the water that comes locally from the cascades, it has a deep blue green tint to it.



You wonder. The fresh melt has this greenish color, but as it progresses on to bigger bodies of water like lakes, it loses this tint. Some people think, “Well, it’s probably the minerals” or something like that. That could be true. But I think it has to do with the fact that it contains a lot of EZ water and EZ water fluorescence. When the light comes in from up above, you see fluorescence. It’s a good sign that it probably contains a lot of EZ water.



Glacial melt is a perfect way to get EZ water. A lot of people have known that this water is really good for your health. That’s one.



[inaudible



22:57]



DM: But that’s not very easy to get. But it definitely implies the question: how stable is this EZ water? I mean, does it dissociate over minutes or hours? Or is it stable for weeks or months?



GP: As I said, the answer is not completely in about this yet. But I think that there is some evidence for us to do it. I’ll tell you why. A colleague of mine has been producing some water, which he claims has real health benefits. In fact, he claims that it can reverse pathologies. I’ve seen some evidence of hospital records demonstrating such. I tell them, “Please send me some of your water. We want to test it.” He sent it. I had it sitting on my desk. It had been gazing at me for two or three months before, finally, we got around to test it.



The kind of testing that we often do is to put it in a spectrometer. It’s called the UV-visible spectrometer. It measures light absorption at different wavelengths. We found during our studies something that absorbs light. It’s in UV region of 270 nanometers, just shy of a visible range. The more it absorbs the 270 nanometer nearby, the more it contains EZ water. We measured this two to three months after it was sent. We found a giant peak – 270 nanometers. I think it’s stable.



Another laboratory took some of the famous healing waters from the Ganges and from Lourdes in France, brought it back to their laboratory, tested it, and showed it at a meeting, a scientific meeting on water. They weren’t particularly concerned about the 270-nanometer absorption. They didn’t know about it. They just showed various slide. I saw on those slides that each and every one of those healing waters contain this 270-nanometer absorption thing.



The answer to your question, I think, is not absolutely clear. But it appears that this water is actually lifesaving.



DM: Is there any processing that we do such as heating the water or adding other constituents to it that might dissociate the EZ water?



GP: If you boil water quickly in the microwave, that might be. I’m not sure. We haven’t done that, but it’s possible. However, if you heat something, if you heat something gently… Heating is really the same as applying infrared energy.



DM: Right.



GP: Because heat and infrared are practically synonymous. We found that if you apply infrared, the EZ (or if anything) builds, it doesn’t diminish. For example, if you go to a sauna, you feel really good afterwards. It’s possible that what the sauna is really doing is that the infrared energy that you absorb (or I absorb) is penetrating inside the body in some way that it’s going to create not so much. In other wavelengths, it penetrates quite deeply.



This is actually… It’s not just a psychological experience. It’s a physical experience that your EZ water, which you need to be perfectly fit, is getting built up by this infrared energy. I say, it’s really the opposite of what you might be suggesting.



DM: Interesting.



GP: That’s the same thing with light therapy. There are various kinds of light therapy using different wavelengths. We found that all wavelengths – some in particular – of light, weak light,



even build EZ. If EZ is critical for the health of your cells, which I think is clear, these therapies have a distinct physical chemical basis. It’s not just…



DM: That is absolutely fascinating because it does provide an explanation for some of the benefits of infrared saunas. Not only that, but also of going outside in the sun and exposing your skin to plenty of sunshine, which we know is loaded with plenty of infrared. But much of the benefit of that exposure, it is currently believed to be mediated through the increase in vitamin D.



Although that is certainly useful, we know there are other benefits. This could be one of the biggest ones, maybe even as big or bigger than vitamin D.



GP: The sun is interesting. A colleague of mine from New Zealand suffers from severe hypertension. He records his blood pressure at 20- or 30-minute intervals throughout the day. What he does for his therapy is he lies under the sun. He records practically each and every time that his blood pressure goes down significantly.



I’ve looked at the records that he sent me. His track is practically for years. He just keeps doing it to remain healthy. Some of the results are really dramatic. He finds pressure reduction sometimes almost a factor of two. It’s really dramatic when he goes under the sun. I can’t recall how long the effect persists, but the sun absolutely is doing something to us.



I think you’re right on by thinking that it may be the infrared energy, but the UV also has an effect. We’re finding that ultraviolet can actually build the charge in these exclusions of light. I didn’t mention in detail, except in the context of cell electrical potential. This is usually as a negative charge. It seems that UV is particularly adept in building this negative charge. We have preliminary evidence, but it’s not quite clear. That’s really an important implication.



DM: Sure. GP: There’s been one more related issue. If you don’t have a pressing question, I can… DM: No, go ahead. Sure, go ahead.



GP: Okay. Well, we found that if we put tubes – simple tubes like a straw made of hydrophilic material – in water, we found something strange and interesting, quite repeatable. We found that the flow inside these tubes, there’s water flow that goes through the tubes at clearly high speed. This happens spontaneously.



It shouldn’t happen spontaneously. Because usually, the common idea is that if you want to drive fluid through a pipe or anything just like these hydrophilic tubes, you need pressure. You need pressure to drive that fluid through. But apparently, we have no pressure here. There’s no pressure difference between the in-back and out-back. But flow after a minute or two builds up spontaneously. It keeps going.



Recently, we found that if we add light, the flow goes faster. It means that light has a particular effect, particularly ultraviolet light in this case but other wavelengths as well. It speeds up the flow. We think that somehow the exclusion zones (EZ) are involved with it. Because inside those tubes, there’s a little ring of exclusion zone, and inside that is an area full of protons. We won’t



[----- 30:00 -----]



go in great detail. It seems that the exclusion zone and the protons are somehow at the pressure of these protons that are actually driving the flow.



Now, that’s kind of interesting in and of itself. But when you think about your capillaries, when you think of the fact that the capillaries inside your body are receiving radiant energy from outside all the time and even inside, as metabolic reactions are always generating heat or infrared. If you think about that, your capillaries and my capillaries are receiving light, so to speak (I’m talking now about infrared light) all the time.



The question is: is it similar to what we observed in the laboratory, where we know that the flow goes through the tubes and the flow is enhanced by light? The question is: could the same thing be happening in your capillaries?



This is an important issue because the capillaries are puzzling. They’re so small. Some of the capillaries are smaller in diameter than the red blood cells that pass through them. Nature seems to have heard it in some way, because any competent engineer would never build a tube or a pipe that’s smaller than the junk that’s supposed to go through. But nature, apparently, has done that.



If you look at the videos of red blood cells passing through these tubes, they squeeze through. They have to bend and swirl in order to get through. Now, that means there’s a lot of resistance there. You need something to push those red blood cells through. And so what is it?



A possibility is that the flow in your capillaries is aided by this kind of radiant energy that passes through in some way. We’re starting to test this. We haven’t. The experiments are just in the conceptual stage. But it’s possible that your cardiovascular system is assisted by radiant energy in the same way that the flow in the tubes is assisted by radiant energy.



DM: Fascinating information. One of the interesting healing modalities that I’ve recently been exploring is the use of a high-powered laser on the order of a 15-watt laser. Most laser pointers that people are familiar with are typically milliwatts, like five milliwatts. This is a 15-watt laser, literally 3,000 times stronger. But the other component of it is that it has two frequencies that are both in the infrared range, which penetrate the tissue. From the limited use I’ve had with it, it’s just extraordinary and profoundly healing for many injuries.



I’m wondering, you know. They have their mechanisms, which typically have to do more with mitochondrial and some other physics components. But they don’t know anything about this EZ water. It would seem to me that would be another modality in maybe even increasing capillary flow, but providing that energy deep into the tissue.



GP: That’s quite possible. I’m not sure what wavelengths you’re talking about.



DM: Yeah, I think they’re like in 900s – 930 or 960 nanometers.



GP: Okay, yeah. Those wavelengths will actually penetrate nicely into tissue. In fact, some of the brain scans that are done through the skull, I think, use slightly lower and shorter wavelengths than those. They do… You can get images that go through the skull. The energy is radiated back and there is enough to give you a good image of the brain. They get through.



get through as well. Probably the wavelengths that you’re talking about penetrate really deeply.



[Inaudible 36:54]



I agree with you. I think what’s going on is probably the buildup of EZ water, because we know it occurs especially with infrared energy. This could be a really powerful tool. I mean, I guess it will be.



DM: Well, it provides a mechanism that explains a lot of mysteries in the body. That’s what I was looking for, these mechanisms. Because it would seem to me, if energy is what provides the EZ water and it gets dissipated, especially when your red blood cells are using it up as they travel through the capillaries, that there might be a relative deficiency of it over time, especially in injured areas. The body needs some type of mechanisms to rebuild that energy to allow the biology to work properly.



GP: I think we’re thinking along precisely the same lines. That’s really what’s going on. I think you’re right, especially during injury. Another example that’s related to that is hyperbaric medicine. That seems also to be good for injuries. You ask yourself, “Well, what could be going on?” In that case, it’s high oxygen and it’s under pressure.



We did some experiments. The results are in. We think we understand the mechanism as to why hyperbaric oxygen is effective for wound healing as it seems to be. EZ water has a higher density than bulk water. If you think about it, if you take bulk water…



DM: Excuse me for a second. What is your definition of bulk water? GP: Oh, sorry. Bulk water is simply H2O. DM: Okay.



GP: Okay, so you take H2O. Usually, it exists in some combination of H2O and H3O2. That’s what really is different about the common belief. If you take H2O and you put it under pressure, it should give you H3O2 because the EZ structure is denser than the H2O. We did the experiments and we found, indeed, that’s the case. If you put pressure, you get more EZ water. Now, oxygen, EZ has more oxygen than H2O. That oxygen, you should get more EZ water. We did that experiment, and that’s also the case.



The reason, I think, why hyperbaric oxygen seems to be as effective as it is is it’s building EZ water in your body and particularly in injured areas where EZ is needed. Because what’s injury? Well, the ordinary function, ordinary cell behavior, the ordinary cell will not function in there. They’re injured, right? You want to build up, build health into that cell.



What do you need to build health? Well, you need proteins, because proteins do the work. Every protein has water around – EZ water, a sheath of EZ water surrounding it. You need to fill it up with protein and EZ water. These various mechanisms that we’ve been talking about – pressure, oxygen, light, and infrared energy – they all build EZ water.



Therefore, I think, this is the central mechanism by which these very simple mechanisms build health or restore health.



DM: That’s fascinating. You know, two of my recent passions relatively within the last year or so are these areas: water and then also how it performs in agriculture. I think they’re integrated



[----- 40:00 -----]



because this EZ water is also not only useful for us, but it’s also useful for plants. Understanding that, I think, provides benefits in both worlds.



But one of the areas that I’ve been studying (I actually purchased most of his books, but I haven’t had a chance to read them yet) is Viktor Schauberger, who is really recognized as an expert in this area, particularly with vortexing the water. I’m wondering if the physical kinetic energy that is done in a vortex is actually another type of energy that can create EZ water.



GP: I think it’s likely. We started some experiments, but nothing is conclusive. Schauberger was amazing. He’s a hero to almost anybody who studies water. But you know, he was a naturalist, not a trained scientist. But his observations in water, especially buoyancies in vortex water, are amazing. Because he does not speak the same scientific language, sometimes his readings are a bit difficult. But he’s a hero to so many people.



I think you’re right about vortex water. You’re putting energy into the water. From my experience, almost any energy that you put into the water seems to create EZ water. We have looked at acoustic energy that seems to affect some change in the water. We’re still not sure exactly what. Vortex water puts enormous energy into the water. There are several groups in Europe studying this phenomenon right now.



Yes, it’s interesting. Schauberger had many, many passions even besides water. He was involved with some so-called lifting devices. I’m not sure if you were aware of this. This is another area, completely different from muscle. But he demonstrated… He’s Austrian. He was recruited by force to work for the Nazis in order to avoid execution. He began working on some devices, the so-called lifters, that looked something like flying saucers. It’s documented that these things actually lift off.



Modern incarnations of that – he was the pioneer – involved very simple devices which you can connect to a power supply. They’re purely passive. You just take two electrodes, connect to it, and these devices rise off. We have one in the laboratory. Just turn on 10,000 volts, a very lightweight frame, two electrodes running around the device, and they lift. It’s kind of an anti- gravity rise. You can find it on the Internet. If anybody wants, search it under “lifters.”



Anyway, going back, Schauberger was a total pioneer. I hope you do kind of read his stuff. Several people have written books about his work. There’s also an archive in the center of Austria that’s being built by his grandson. He’s really a hero.



He also spoke about “life water” or “living water” as opposed to dead water. That, to me – the so-called living water – translates to EZ water, because EZ water has energy – it has charge. The H2O next to it bears opposite charge. When you build EZ water, you have something like a battery. EZ is charged and the water next to it has opposite charge. We found that that battery can deliver energy.



I’m not sure if we could use the term that Schauberger used, which is “living water.” But you know, it’s pretty close to an . It’s not like distilled water, which is basically dead water. So, good luck with the Schauberger.



[inaudible 44:24]



DM: Yeah, if anyone else is interested, getting his books is not easy. It’s typically several months’ process because they’re not readily available. But I’ve gotten my first one, at least all of them. He’s written so many. But I’ve got them on order and hope to divulge them as time allows.



One of the other things that occur when you incorporate this energy to create this EZ water… I wonder if you can comment on some of the changes. I think you alluded to earlier a change in the pH, the electronegativity (or sometimes called the oxidation reduction potential (ORP), of course, the structure, and the oxygen content. [There are] lots of things happening. I’m wondering if you can describe the physics that help differentiate EZ water from bulk water.



GP: Practically, every property that we’ve measured in this water is different from bulk water – H2O. You mentioned some viscosity; it’s more viscous. For example, if you think of an egg white, it has a pretty high viscosity. Egg white is full of this. Egg white has proteins and all proteins are surrounded by this kind of water, so it’s viscous. And EZ water is viscous.



Optical properties are different. Recently, two different Russian groups began studying the optical properties. Now, you don’t ordinarily think of optical properties being too interesting, but they actually give you a sense of density.



For example, refracted index, both Russian groups independently, they don’t know. I don’t know. They’re both from Moscow. They studied the refractive index of this EZ water. They found it was higher by about 10 percent than ordinary water. It’s sort of like a lens. The lens of your camera has a refractive index that’s higher than the air around it, so it bends light. This does the same. It has a higher refractive index.



But from the point of view of understanding water, what we know from this is that the density is higher – 10 percent approximately higher than [bulk] water. You don’t have a tendency to sink. That’s another aspect. It’s ordered as another aspect.



People measure optical birefringence. Birefringence is again another measurement that can tell you if molecules are ordered or not ordered. Here, they’re highly ordered. In fact – this was so long ago by Mae-Wan Ho. Mae-Wan Ho is a biophysicist who now runs the Institute of Science in Society, a very interesting kind of a weekly newsletter from her.



In a former incarnation, she studied water. She studied animals and looked at some intact animals. I believe they were worms of some sort. She could see just in a very highly developed microscope with super detectability in birefringence different regions with different colors, indicating that these were high in birefringence. That means that large regions have continuous molecular ordering of water that’s inside them. It was very interesting. There were beautiful pictures in her book The Rainbow and the Worm. It’s very much worth having.



Birefringence as showing order is another property. I’m trying to think about…



DM: What type of pH changes are you seeing? Does it turn the water more alkaline?



GP: Yes. The water is definitely more alkaline. We can measure this using of pH probe, a very pH probe, and look at this kind of water. Or you can actually use a pH-sensitive dye as in litmus paper. It’s not so easy to use the dye, because the dye is excluded from the



[inaudible 48:34]



exclusion zone. We can look just beyond the exclusion zone, which has a lot of positive charge or a lot of protons. We find that the dye shows a huge amount of proton content.



In fact, when we get our first experiments on this, one of the first things we found… We put a gel in the water and we knew that next to the gel is the exclusion zone. We put some dye in the water, and we expected that just beyond the exclusion zone are a lot of protons (positive charged). Now we had a pH down to 1.



DM: Wow.



GP: The pH 1 is awfully acidic, awfully high in content. As soon as we’re working on this, we just felt uneasy. How could pH be 1? Something is really wrong with this. We acted quick. We’re on to do something else because we felt uneasy. We repeated those experiments many times, and again the pH of the region just beyond the exclusion zone is very low. It’s just filled with protons. The pH of the exclusion zone or EZ water, it’s high. It’s in the order of…



Well, I kind of hesitate to give a value because pH usually is defined in liquids, in aqueous solution, and this exclusion zone is really not exactly an aqueous solution. See, it’s more like a gel. It’s hard really to define pH.



But one of the things we’ve learned from that’s related to the pH and the question that you asked is that, you know, we all think that everything is neutral. It makes sense, right? They have negative charge. Positive charge is actually going to compensate and we achieve neutrality. Every physical chemistry book tells you that things are neutral. It’s absolutely sensible that systems go toward neutrality.



However, when you think of aqueous systems getting energy, continuous energy coming in from the environment, it may be possible to actually build regions with net charge either positive or negative. I think that’s what we have here. We have net charge. I’ve experienced it myself.



One group producing an interesting kind of water, which they claim has good health benefits, they asked me to touch the water. I reached out my hand, put my finger in the water, and I got shocked. My colleague didn’t say it – he also got a shock. Something is going on with the water. I think water can store charge. I think our body can store charge as well.



If you allow me a radical point of view, I think that you are negatively charged. I hesitate to use the word “negative” because you’re so positive, right? But I think you are. And I think I am and all of us are.



The reason I say this is very simple. You’re mostly cells. You’re built [in a way that] 60 percent of your mass is cells. The cells are negatively charged. If you just start by adding that, you are negative. Now, the extracellular tissues – collagen and elastin – they’re negatively charged proteins and they attract a lot EZ water. Much of the extracellular mass is also negatively charged. You start building up negatively charged cells, outside the cells. You start thinking about it.



[----- 50:00 -----]



One of the regions inside your body that are actually positively charged… Well, urine has a fairly low pH. I think 5, 6, or something. It might contain some positive charges. Maybe your gastrointestinal system or your stomach has a low pH. There are a few compartments that are positively charged. But mostly, you’re trying to get rid of that stuff – your feces. Your body is saying that we’ve got to get rid of this positively charged stuff because we want to maintain negativity.



New hypothesis: we’re all negative, actually net negative charge, and you might say “alkaline,” if you will. We’re alkaline or negatively charged. We strive to – in all we do – maintain that negative charge and maintaining that negative charge may be important to maintaining health or life, including plants. Plants are connected to the ground.



As we all know, although I just learned five years ago, and many people don’t really know. It’s known 50 years ago by practically everyone in science that the earth actually is negatively charged. You can find it if you look at the lectures of the great Richard Feynmen, the Nobel Prize-winning physicist. His famous lectures are used by every graduate student in physics practically. Volume II, Chapter Nine talks about the negative charge of the earth. I mean, that’s beside the point, but…



DM: No, it’s an important one. I think part of the reason why we are negatively charged is that our ancestors at least regularly connected with the earth without shoes on or, at least non- conducting soles, so that those electrons from the earth transferred to their body and help build this electronegativity up.



GP: Absolutely. I think that’s a point. Plants are permanently connected to the earth, so there’s no doubt about their negativity. But sure, that’s the basis of the earthing technique. I know a lot of people are using that. I know it makes so much sense that the negative charge of the earth, as you point out, is transferred to you.



If you have an organ that’s not functioning well, for example, it’s lacking that negative charge, well, the negative charge from the earth and also the other methods that we talked about, including EZ water, can help restore that negativity. I’ve become convinced during the past months that this negativity that we have (I wish it were called positivity because I like that term better, but it’s negative, negative charge) is critical.



DM: Let’s just say an electron surplus. GP: Electron surplus, good. We’re negatively charged. We’re not neutral; I think we’re



negatively charged.



DM: One of the interesting points about plants, because that’s so integral to health, too… Any person who has a home with a landscape and waters their lawn in the summer knows it certainly helps as opposed to not getting water, especially if it’s not raining. But when it rains, the benefit to the landscape improves much more dramatically than simple water. I’m wondering if this EZ water could be part of the explanation.



GP: Positively. You think about the rain that comes down. We all think, well, the rain is H2O because everything is H2O. I think that’s not the case. I think that if you think about the clouds,



what’s inside the clouds? Start from there. If you think about it, why does water condense into clouds? That’s been kind of a mystery. We found that the water that evaporates definitely evaporates – it’s in the book also, by the way… It doesn’t evaporate one molecule at a time. It evaporates in clusters that are maybe a gazillion times the size of a water molecule – hugely larger.



That’s why, for example, if you go to Starbucks and have some hot coffee and look at the vapor just above your coffee, you can see the vapor. The reason you can see the vapor is that vapor constitutes of a lot of little droplets, but the droplets are not so little. In order to see these droplets – and you see it as you see those clouds – they have to be in the order of at least one micrometer. Actually, they’re more like 10 micrometers, five to 10. Five to 10 micrometers mean multiple billions and billions of water molecules clustered together to form one little droplet.



Now, this is what rises into the atmosphere. The moisture in the atmosphere consists of these tiny little droplets we call aerosol droplets. These droplets – any droplet – contain EZ water as a shell. The EZ water is charged. Then the question is: how do these droplets get together to form a cloud? Droplets have charge. They’re negatively charged. We learned in physics, all of us, that if we have little droplets over items of the same charge, they should repel each other. There’s no way that these are going to get together as clouds. But they do obviously. Something is the matter.



The reason they get together – again, this is laid out in the book – is that in between these negatively charged droplets are positive charges. They glue them together. As Feynmen said, it is an inevitable way. Like likes like. It means two like-charged entities like each other, so they get together. The reason he said that like likes like is intermediate unlikes. This is a central principle in nature. It’s what brings the moisture into clouds.



Now, what happens when the clouds deliver their rain? Remember, these are charged particles, so to speak, and come down. They contain EZ shells. The EZs are charged. What actually comes down into the soil is indeed EZ water. That’s why I know that farmers claim that rainfall is dramatically better than ordinary water for their crops.



Just one final point on this: we all think that rain falls from the sky. Droplets somehow (we don’t know how) come out of the cloud and just descends just as a falling body would descend. It’s not true. A paper in Nature, seven or eight years ago, actually measured the descent velocity of raindrops using high-speed photography. They found that these droplets came to the earth up to 10 times faster…



DM: Wow.



GP: Than you would predict by simply falling out of the sky. In other words, something was attracting it. Something was attracting those droplets to the earth. Therefore, they came faster than what would be expected.



I think charge is central to all of that. These drops are charged or charged with EZ water. Anything that’s charged will induce an equal and opposite charge on whatever is nearby. That will be the earth. I think the raindrops containing EZ that are therefore good for the health of plants and vegetables are actually getting pulled toward the earth. That’s why they fall as they do.



DM: But why would that be if the earth’s electronegative and the EZ water is negative? GP: It doesn’t matter if the earth is negative. Overall, it’s negative, but within that negativity, it’s



possible to induce regions of positivity. DM: Okay.



GP: People who deal with weather would know that this is the case. For example, with rain clouds or thunderclouds, they will have a region of the rain clouds that’s highly negatively charged. It induces positive charge on the earth. Local regions could be exceptions to that rule.



DM: Okay, that helps explain it. I’m sure [it’s] part of the mystery of why hurricanes and tornadoes exist, too. I’m sure it’s all part of the process. There are a large number of scientists seeking to understand it at a very deep level, so they can make accurate predictions and protect people from getting killed unnecessarily from the weather.



I’m wondering with all your useful studies, if you can perhaps compile some top recommendations you have that people can use on a regular basis to increase their access to EZ water.



GP: Yeah, well, it’s a complicated question. It’s not a very simple one. Okay, so, I was suggesting glacial melt, and that’s not very accessible to many people.



DM: Right, most people.



GP: I was suggesting some of the healing water. I’m also suggesting water from deep sources.



DM: Like?



GP: For example, spring water, it comes from deep sources. The reason that contains EZ water is that it’s under pressure.



DM: Oh, that’s the reason. GP: Those are sort of the most natural ways. Another way (you’ve got me thinking now) is…



DM: So pressurizing the water will actually make it more negative and will create more EZ water?



GP: Yeah.



DM: That is fascinating.



GP: I think it’s true. I think it’s true in general. If you can get hold of some of those deep sources, that may actually be good for your health. Those are a few. Now, adding negative charge can possibly do it. Some people put alkaline water in which this is actually done.



A colleague told me just yesterday, a colleague who deals with kidneys, kidney pathology, that some Taiwanese groups took the water of patients who undergo dialysis and added negative



[----- 1:00:00 -----]



charge to the diet during dialysis outside the body. Apparently, their results are phenomenal in terms of patients’ improvement in health. I haven’t read those papers. I just heard. You can, in some way, attract negative charge to the water and that should build EZ water.



The more interesting way is… Various people have approached me with different waters, different kinds of waters, to which they’ve applied energy. They left me a couple of dozens on the table. These are mostly sincere people who want to do something for humanity. They’re many. They’re unknown to most people. They come to me because they know of my deep interest in water and in health.



DM: Sure.



GP: They want me to know about it. They even asked me to test it. I’ve been reluctant to do that because I don’t want to take one particular type of water and wave the flag for that water. I don’t know really whether it’s the best one or not the best one.



DM: Sure.



GP: Some of the claims are amazing. I mean, it claims literally from reversing pathologies. It’s almost unbelievable that that could be the case, but it’s possible. There are many of these. They face real obstacles. One obstacle, for example, is the FDA, which doesn’t really consider water to be a popular pharmaceutical and etc. I think most of us know about that.



I have a plan. My plan is that since we have a laboratory, laboratory facilities, and we have clinical collaborators, I would like to take these waters, maybe a dozen of them or so, and actually test them objectively against one another and see what they do for health. I think we have a good chance because it’s known that we know reasonable objective measurements of water. I like to find out whether it’s true that this water objectively can really have serious impact on health.



But I think if we can demonstrate this in experiments, done objectively double-blind experiments just the way most scientific investigative we do these experiments… But most of their results are far anecdotal. There are some results in the literature. If we can do this in a double-blind way and if we find that some of these waters are really curative, I think we can make a huge impact. We tried getting funds from NIH to do this. So far, we’ve been unsuccessful. It’s not exactly mainstream science.



DM: No. Well, I think you’re on the right path. I really am deeply appreciative and grateful for all the pioneering work you’re doing in validating what I believe is probably one of the most exciting potentials in healing that we have known to humankind. It’s just unappreciated. People just don’t get it.



But you are leading the way. You’re developing the science. You’re providing the groundwork, the framework, the scientific understanding, that can explain some of these phenomena and then can validate what is particularly and typically perceived as a weirdo approach. But there’s actually strong science behind it. I’m so deeply appreciative for your work. I can’t tell you how much I’m grateful for that and for writing this book – not The Fourth Dimension, but the The Fourth Phase of Water: Beyond Solid, Liquid, and Vapor.



[Inaudible 1:04:36]



GP: Right, The Fourth Phase of Water: Beyond Solid, Liquid, and Vapor.



DM: The Fourth Phase of Water: Beyond Solid, Liquid, and Vapor. It’s a phenomenal book. It really goes into far more detail. The graphics are great. Your son did an awesome job; thank him for me for that. If anyone’s interested in this, as I believe they should be, I strongly recommend picking up a copy of the book, because it will really help go into further details.



As far as I conclude in your somewhat elusive answer to my previous question, we just don’t know at this point. The science is still new. I think, just to conclude it, it’s just… This is it. I mean, it is water. A good portion of your passion and desire for health should be spent on exploring the way to optimize your water intake. The more you can do at that, the better.



Just one comment on this before we close: a lot of people think that alkaline water is phenomenally beneficial water. It may be. I’m not convinced that’s the case, though, at least the typical alkaline water that’s produced or ionizes because of these electrical plates. I’m just not convinced that that’s the ideal way to do that. I wouldn’t encourage that. I think that might be a dead end. A lot of people will throw rocks at me for saying that, but I’m not convinced of it.



But I think that these other strategies… Some of the strategies that people are coming to you within clearly the vortex water – injecting physical energy or light energy – no question. There’s no way you can go wrong with that. I mean, that seems to me one of the ultimate healing waters, especially if you optimize the vortexing and combine it with some synergistic components.



But the research needs to be done clearly. I think we can combine it with some biological parameters like plant growth and sprouts, seeing how they’ll grow and measure their physical characteristics. You can use the plants to tell you of the effectiveness of that specific water.



GP: Absolutely. I’m with you 100 percent. I have the same passion. DM: This is literally one of our primary passions now, water.



This is literally one of our primary passions now – we’re working on this vortexing water project. I don’t know. If you get a lot of people who probably have some incredibly valid concepts, I would love to have access to them, if you’re willing to share that. I don’t know if there’s confidentiality against it, but we’ll be glad to work with them. We might be able to take it, because we have a little R&D center that we’re developing in our office. I really, really want to make the best vortex water in the world. Let me tell you how we’re thinking about doing that.



GP: Yeah.



DM: Some of it’s based on your work. It’s not only vortexing; that’s easy with magnets. But then reversing the vortex every few seconds, because it’s creating more energy. I just want to read Schauberger’s. I have to get behind his mind, what he understood, see if I can translate it to contemporary stuff, and then also integrate the light, the infrared light into the water with the reversing vortexes.



[----- 1:10:00 -----]



GP: I think that could be, you know. I think it needs to be tried. The question is: what will be the end point? How will you know if it’s good or not good? I mean, do you plan to do a clinical study?



DM: Yes, we do. Our clinical studies take one week. GP: How do you do it? DM: It’s a biological system. It’s called sprouts. GP: Oh, yes, sprouts, sure.



DM: We soak the seeds in that water, and we water them. We have a very specific amount of seeds that we measure out to a tenth of a gram. And then we measure pre-imposed. We do not only the measurement of the weight of the harvest, but also the brix meeting, which is the amount of sugar plants are producing, and some other measurements. We use the plants to tell us the vitality of that water.



GP: Yeah. Actually, I have a few experiments going on like that, too, but they’re done by the graduates. They’re really not in a particularly high level. But I think that’s a good way. I think… I’m not sure how many people will actually believe the results of those experiments unless someone does clinical trials.



DM: Yeah.



GP: At least test it on mice or cats.



DM: Well, we don’t have to make any claims because you’re right: the FDA will come down on us like lead bricks. No question. But we know we can clearly show what it does to the plants, and people can make their own conclusions.



GP: Yeah, that’s it. That’s a good idea. DM: Yeah.



GP: But I have an idea beyond that that I think you can comment on. I think you and I share the view that the FDA is limiting so much.



DM: Oh, gosh, yeah, absolutely.



GP: They’re a real obstacle for humanity. I have an idea: suppose a different organization were created in parallel with the FDA, not claiming health benefits, but trying something like that. In other words, suppose some independent organization that’s not paid for by any pharmacist, not supported by any pharmaceutical company or any of the chemical company – Monsanto and such – began to do some testing and began to be kind of an independent “certifying” organization that people could look to for approval or non-approval, without any claims of health benefits.



People would know that we look to this group and they tested things objectively. Maybe you, actually, kind of represent that, I guess. But I mean, if we want to spread the idea of water more



widely, it’s never going to happen the way the current setup exists because there are people who are… I don’t know if you’re recording or not.



DM: I’m recording you, but this is all private. This is only for internal use. This is not going out. I can promise you.



GP: Yeah. I mean, these are paid for by the pharmaceutical companies. DM: Right.



GP: Drugs and such. There’s no way to beat them really, really, easily. I’m a lab scientist, but I’ve become educated in the ways of the world amazingly.



DM: Sure.



GP: I understand that this could be a giant obstacle for anybody – for you especially – who wants to achieve something for humanity, something that instead of killing people like chemotherapy…



DM: Well, but there’s this legal principle called res ipsa loquitur we’re taught in medical school, that’s basically “the facts speak for themselves.” When people apply this water of some simple principles and their disease starts to reverse just like with this 15-watt laser… I mean, people having pain for 10 to 15 years just disappears in minutes. I mean, the results speak for themselves and then that word of mouth spreads.



You don’t need to have this approval by the FDA. I mean, you have to be really careful with what you say, of course, and you have to follow the guidelines. You don’t want to get thrown in jail. But you know, it’s just a matter of letting people know and letting them try it. But you have to create it and make it available. I think a lot of these people… I would say a good percentage, a healthy percentage, of the people who are coming to you have some pretty darn, phenomenal ideas, and I’d love to know what those are.



GP: I’d be happy to. I’m happy to share with you. I guess, I can let you know. See, people are constantly asking me your contact.



DM: Oh, I know, yeah. You’re a lightning rod.



GP: What?



DM: You’re a lightning rod for those.



GP: Yeah, a lightning rod. Absolutely, I’ve become light-receptive. Actually, it sorts of drives me crazy. I have no time at all. My doctor has to make an appointment to talk to me.



DM: I’d love to work collaboratively with you. I think we could do a lot for this. I’m absolutely on board. I’ve been studying health not quite as long as you’ve been studying water, but you know, for over 30 years, it’s my absolute passion. My goal is to share this information with people. There’s nothing that I’ve studied that I think has more potential than the optimal water. I’m totally on board. This is a big succession of our focus: it’s going to be on water. I mean, in the future. There’s just no question. We’re there.



GP: Okay, well, I’m delighted. Step one is simply for me to connect you with some of these people.



DM: Okay. GP: If you know any wealthy people who would like to donate five million or something like



that, we’d like to do some objective studies here.



DM: Yeah. We have a limited budget. We do funding. We funded things in California. Naturally, your state’s going to benefit from it in November for being the first state that has genetically engineered food labeled. It will pass in November. That’s almost a guarantee –100 percent. You will be the first state in the U.S. We actually catalyzed that.



But that takes funding, you know. We put a few million dollars into that or more actually. But we’ve got these things. I think they’re really crucial. But as surplus funds come up, we could talk about collaborating with some of that support.



GP: Yeah. I wasn’t really hinting at your generosity. But you know, you’re probably in contact with some truly wealthy people who would be delighted to fund a study that has impact on the health of humanity.



DM: Yeah. GP: They might fund you also, but you’re also a commercial entity. DM: Yes, that’s right.



GP: We’re totally a university – not connected with any commercial entity. I think maybe with the book, and as people get to know of the book (thanks for the plug, by the way), things will begin happening. But if we could begin studies and we get to do that in a collaboration, that would be okay, too.



DM: That sounds good.



GP: We really like to initiate studies right away.



DM: Okay. I’ll discuss it with Steve. I think we’re on the same wave length, so that’s good. How do I connect with the person on your staff that has those people with the ideas on the different strategies on water?



GP: Well, you can best connect with me.



DM: Okay.



GP: Because there’s a post-doc who’s not funded, so she’s only working a little bit. But I can send you her email. She’s not in town right now. I have an undergraduate student. We have a decent budget for our studies, but they’re mostly involved with physical chemical studies of water. We don’t have any budget at all for this.



DM: Yeah.



GP: That’s right. I was actually thinking even of doing crowd fundings to try to get a decent funding.



DM: We’ve already budgeted a quarter million for this research that we’re doing internally. We’re definitely doing it with the biophysics stuff, the vortexing machine, the patent needed, and things like that. There’s no doubt, I think… My guess right now is that an ideal vortexer could be one of the simplest ways to improve people’s health, because you can recreate glacial water and spring water.



GP: Sorry, what? DM: You can recreate glacial water or spring water in your own home. GP: Yeah, absolutely. DM: Inexpensively, relatively inexpensively. GP: Joe, I can connect you with a Swedish guy who’s been dealing with vortexing. DM: Oh, definitely. I would love it. I would love it. GP: Do you want to know his name? DM: Oh, yes, anyone who has any information about vortexing, I’d love.



GP: There was a company. He used to be with a company. He’s a smart guy. He’s not with the company anymore. He knows about vortexing. Let me write down a note here. Okay. I’ll send you by email his contact information. He’d be useful.



There’s another guy who makes a device, I must admit. I hate to admit it probably, but we have it on our water system. It’s a vortexer. It’s a copper pipe inside. When you put your copper pipe in your own, it stirs with your own input water systems. It’s got a kind of spiral inside. The water goes to the spiral. It comes down vortex. We use this for our drinking water and shower water. I’m not sure if it makes a difference, but I’m pretty healthy.



DM: Yeah, well, the key here is letting the plants tell us, because they’re going to give us the first clue. And the generation to do that is one week. I mean, you cannot… I guess, you can do that with fruit flies about as quickly, but not much.



GP: Yeah. We do the same with sprouts. DM: Yeah. GP: It’s a great way to do it. As I said, we do the same with sprouts. It’s a great way to do it. DM: Simple and inexpensive. You go to leverage things when you have limited resources.



GP: Yeah, I know. Well, your resources are less limited than our resources. Actually, my wife buys your stuff.



DM: Oh, great, perfect. Well, I’d gladly give you a partner discount for that. There’s no problem. Just let me know. I’ll take care of that. Actually, send me your wife’s email. We’ll make sure that happens, okay?



GP: Okay. I wasn’t asking.



DM: No, that’s fine. We’re happy to do that. But also, send me the guy, the vortexing, and any other like your graduate student information. If she’s going to coordinate this, that would be great.



GP: Okay, yeah, she’s actually post-doc from the . DM: Okay, post-doc, I’m sorry. GP: Yeah. I can give you her contact information. DM: Perfect.



GP: But I think she doesn’t really… I mean, you may be disappointed because she doesn’t really have a deep feel yet for this stuff.



DM: I thought she was going to connect me with all those people that are coming to you with all their crazy ideas.



GP: Yeah, but I can also.



DM: Okay, well, then you can do it. You just do it. I don’t need her then. I want to connect to those crazies, because I know there are some gold nuggets in what they’re thinking that really have some phenomenal potential. We can test it. We can screen it real easily.



GP: Okay, I will do that. I’ll give you the names. In the next couple of days, I’ll give you contact information.



DM: Perfect.



GP: And some notes.



DM: Okay, all right. We’ll give you a copy of this interview, of course, and you can edit it just like before. It’ll probably be on in the next few months. This is great. I’m just so happy for the collaboration. You’re really one of our heroes.



GP: Thank you, Joe. You’re one of my heroes really. My wife looks at your website all the time. DM: Great. It’s a great collaboration. I got to go. I set an hour and a half, and I got to catch a



plane anyway. GP: Thank you. DM: All right, sounds good. Thanks a lot. Bye now.



[inaudible 1:23:00]



[END]









u, Joe. You’re one of my heroes really. My wife looks at your website all the time. DM: Great. It’s a great collaboration. I got to go. I set an hour and a half, and I got to catch a

plane anyway. GP: Thank you. DM: All right, sounds good. Thanks a lot. Bye now.

[inaudible 1:23:00]

[END]

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